No representatives cannot express what each individual thinks on a vote like a referendum can. The Swiss use this system now far more than us and I'm saying that while not advocating for a different system as I've not seriously considered the alternatives.....not that what we think matters.

You go on about only 30 percent voting in ancient Greek times well we still exclude people now via age and status.

Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Nov 2021 7.52am)

votes are to decide how the pie is sliced.

Those who contribute nothing to the pie should have no vote. The longterm unemployed are a blight on honest decent working people. Driving up the cost of housing , congesting our roads in cars they do not deserve.

What proportion of the gang-rapists (and their immediate families) are longterm unemployed ?

60% of these people ? 95% of them ?

In England in the 1800s less than 3% were eligible to vote.

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That though isn't the point, is it? The purpose of any democratic system is to ensure that the power to change things lies in the hands of the people, and not either a king or select group.

Parliamentary democracy has evolved as electorates got bigger and direct democracy became ever more unmanageable, slow and expensive. It can work with small electorates and simple questions, but asking electorates to choose representatives to study complicated issues, and take decisions on their behalf, is not only more efficient, it helps ensure that the people, as a whole, get what they need, and not just what they want. Direct elections will always see self-interest winning and the needs of minorities ignored.

You argued that referendums are more democratic. They are certainly closer to democracy's Athenian origins, but democracy has moved a long way since then, and the meaning of the word has moved with it.

Does anywhere allow children to vote? Determining when childhood ends is another question. Should serving prisoners (and those convicted of election offences) be allowed to vote? I cannot imagine you being in favour. Should Peers or the Royals be allowed to vote?

Over 99% of all adults can vote. Isn't that actually more democratic?

My argument wasn't that restrictions on voting are wrong rather it was in response to your 30 percent point as if a eligibility percentage is what democracy is about. Like Owen I probably favour a stakeholder restriction on voting....if you don't contribute into the system then you don't get to vote on it...something like that, though as I said, it isn't a set formulated opinion.

Democracy is not set in stone and my original point wasn't meant to be some expansion into other areas but just a factual point that referendums are closer to its original form....closer not exact. I didn't regard it as a particularly contentious point

Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Nov 2021 10.25am)