Lots of 'progressives' within Labour know that to change society you have to bring its current model down.....I don't think they are all that worried about debt...because secretly in their minds all that will be wiped or become unimportant within a new order.

For a lot of them it's about 'feelings' and 'justice' before any practical elements of capitalism.

Most of us were left wingers when we were young and didn't really understand capitalism and socialism nor how to compare to other systems. Plenty of people grow out of being left wing once they start paying any significant taxes as adults.....Many never do and unsurprisingly their political position doesn't change.

In my travels in life I met a few left wing minded people with high minded ideals for others but who also put a lot of effort into paying as little tax as possible.

They may not like to reflect upon it...but for many of them it isn't about rationality but rather self interest....Or...if they aren't at the party then let the party burn.....A kind of resentment born of envy.....In some respects a justified resentment but that's how it seems to me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2017 5.02pm)

Lots of 'progressives' within Labour know that to change society you have to bring its current model down.....I don't think they are all that worried about debt...because secretly in their minds all that will be wiped or become unimportant within a new order.

For a lot of them it's about 'feelings' and 'justice' before any practical elements of capitalism.

Most of us were left wingers when we were young and didn't really understand capitalism and socialism nor how to compare to other systems. Plenty of people grow out of being left wing once they start paying any significant taxes as adults.....Many never do and unsurprisingly their political position doesn't change.

In my travels in life I met a few left wing minded people with high minded ideals for others but who also put a lot of effort into paying as little tax as possible.

They may not like to reflect upon it...but for many of them it isn't about rationality but rather self interest....Or...if they aren't at the party then let the party burn.....A kind of resentment born of envy.....In some respects a justified resentment but that's how it seems to me.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2017 5.02pm)

I don't think that you can have a society with limited resources, which doesn't require some kind of capitalism. Socialism works better as a critique of the problems of capitalism, as presenting a means of regulating against those problems, than as a means of creating a better society.

Changing an economic model won't create a better society, just a different one. We've seen that when trying to introduce democracy to a country without the progress of change that led to the rise of democratic systems.

And of course changing an economic model doesn't reflect in a change in people to accept it either.

Have you head of econometrics?

This is how I like to think of it as well....the principle of socialism in the sense of trying to move towards a fairer society....It being used as a check upon the worst excesses of capitalism....In think in part that's where a lot of the west is.

Of course the argument about what a 'fairer' society looks like is a different debate but I think the idea that socialism is best when it modifies capitalism is a good one....Just as long as capitalism is the system driving the car....Socialism can hold the map....But never look to take over.

Capitalism and Socialism can be compared to the Sun....Insomuch as capitalism is the nuclear process pushing the expansion preventing collaspe while socialism works like gravity containing the expansion and pushing back.

Find a happy medium and you get the best of both....let one dominate too much and inevitably it all goes Pete Tong.

Edited by Stirlingsays (20 Jul 2017 6.47pm)

Have you heard of pseudoscience?