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Calais migrant trouble

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leggedstruggle Flag Croydon 31 Jul 15 5.36pm

Mildly amusing I thought.

11825152_420079211523007_719067867204311829_n.jpg.jpeg Attachment: 11825152_420079211523007_719067867204311829_n.jpg.jpeg (41.65Kb)

 


mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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Mr Palaceman Flag 31 Jul 15 5.46pm Send a Private Message to Mr Palaceman Add Mr Palaceman as a friend

Quote chris123 at 31 Jul 2015 10.43am

Quote Mr Palaceman at 31 Jul 2015 10.23am

Quote Tom-the-eagle at 31 Jul 2015 7.40am

I am writing this having been up since 6 this morning working, I am also writing this having just paid a (what was for me) huge amount for my half yearly tax last night which I (or my family) cannot really afford. On that basis, excuse me if I do not sound too sympathetic towards these economic migrants who would all be entitled to free healthcare, education, benefits and housing, for which I would need to start work even earlier in the morning in order to be able to pay even more tax to make sure all their needs are met when I, a small business owner, an employer, get absolutely sweet FA in help from the government even though I work 7 days a week just to put bread on my kids table. Do people not understand – all these people come at a HUGE cost to us, the taxpayer.
Rant over. Have a good days peeps.

I have been watching this debate for a while and I agree with elements of both sides of the arguement but there are some myths that seem to get repeated time and time again and one of them is that everyone who comes here gets everything free. That just isn't true.

The truth is that migrants who come here put more in and take less out than the locals. They tend to work rather than claim benefits, so huge cost to the taxpayer I think not.

Historically the taxman has made more from immigration than is paid out in benefits for those that come and just claim. Having said that, why should anyone be allowed to claim anything, when they have not paid in or contributed in some way the the betterment of our nation.

If that is allowed to happen then those that work hard and contribute just feel the system is unfair and who can argue with that. So there needs to be effective control over who comes here and I believe that is the sovereign right of our country and should not be left for the EU to dictate.

Most EU member states would, I believe, have no problem in letting Migrants pass through their country to come here because they don't want them in their countries even more than us.

We have, I believe, always been a more tolerant country than say, Spain, Italy, France or Germany. When it comes to helping those from other countries, the British people have always been right up there, in the giving of charity to foreign causes but on a government level, we don't take as many, as Germany for instance, who take 6 times as many and France who take twice as many as us.

Another thought is that even if migrants do contribute to the country and it's economy, there are other factors that need to be considered, such as social impact and the fact that large numbers of the population just don't want foreigners here and that view is important because it's just how some people feel and right or wrong, that isn't going to change with what's going on now.

Reading through these threads, it seems to me that there are many threads stating the problems without really offering any practical solutions to those perceived problems. They aren't going to stop wanting to come, while their own countries are in turmoil, that's a reality that we have to accept.

We are going to have to invest more in the stability of those countries where the migrants come from and I believe that we can do that in a way that benefits our country. If we don't the tide will increase and spending money on fences will not stop them.

If I was them, I would want to come here, we are a lot safer and you can make a fair living most of the time.

When some of them can't even live, let alone earn, what do they have to lose by coming here?

That's what needs to change before people stop wanting to come and it is becoming more apparent that we cannot cope with those migrants who have the determination to come to Europe/Britain for a better life.


This a French problem, not ours, if they are legit asylum seekers, international law provides for this. Economic migrants have no right to remain in France and they should be repatriated.


Fine, that's what should happen but repatriating half a million migrants each year is just not possible and now that many migrants and traffickers understand that we cannot cope, then they will only come in even greater numbers in the future.

Many want to come here and are willing to pass through other countries in order to get here. That makes it our problem and just stating that it's not our problem is not going to change that.

 


"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 31 Jul 15 6.01pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Quote dannyh at 31 Jul 2015 8.46am

Quote serial thriller at 31 Jul 2015 1.02am

I genuinely don't believe that we are that far from seeing a policy of murder being pursuited by the British government towards these people. Cameron has channeled the prominent animal terminology which the media have been using, while government policy rests uncomfortably between non-intervention (which will lead to thousands of deaths as the winter months approach) and aggressive action (sending in the army, whatever that's supposed to achieve).

As has been said before ad infinitum, the referencing of human beings as animals has been a precursor to murder throughout history, be it the Jews under the Nazis, through the Rwandan genocide and Indians in the Raj to the Slave trade and everything in between. What's equally as concerning is that these people are now citizenless, without defence should a state that they don't belong to and have never set foot in decide to exterminate them.

I think we're finding ourselves at a real tipping point, because there are now more displaced people in the world than ever before, and that number only looks set to increase as wealth inequality rises, climate change continues to take effect and resources become more and more scarce. In fact it could be one of the defining issues of the century, and it is incumbent on the leader's of the world to find a solution to the problem which doesn't merely involve large-scale temporary resettlement or, worse still, the deaths of millions of the poorest people in the world.


They are illiegal immigrants who despite constant and repeated warnings are breaking the law over and over again. However no government in the world would sanction the use of deadly force against them, to suggest otherwise is exactly the type of lefty bollicks I'd expect from Corbyn (do you have his photo on your desk at awork ?)

Sending in the Army will give more man power to guard against the illegal activety (there's that word again illegal funny how that keeps cropping up) of breaking through fences, breaking into lorrys, and trying to gain illegal entry into the UK. The police dont have the numbers to cope, send the army in to patrol in riot gear no leathal weapons and you gain control of the situation, the simple fact of the matter is, at the moment there is not sufficeint man power to stop people attempting illegal (oh look there it is again) entry into the UK.

A what a crime to used words, put him right up there with likes of Tony Blair WAR CRIMINAL. what should he have said then, a jambori of illegal immigrants ? perhaps a smorgsabord of refugee's ? A Bonhomie of benefit seekers ? Look up the menaing of "swarm" in the dictionary you recationary wet susan, (a swarm/swarms of) A large number of people or things:
a swarm of journalists
taken directly from the oxford English dictionary.

No one is going to get exterminated, WTF are you ? a dalek ?

So now its the wealthy and the weathers fault!? I can only assume you are in the middle of serious Crystal Meth binge.

The deaths of millions ? if there was a HOL prize for drama queen of the year you my good man would win by a country (no fox hunting) mile.


1. They aren't illegal immigrants, they're asylum seekers. Given you seem so fond of dictionary definitions, let's have a little wander over to dictionary corner:

Definition of asylum seeker in English:
noun A person who has left their home country as a political refugee and is seeking asylum in another.

To be an illegal immigrant, they'd have to a) already be in Britain, or b) seeking permanent residency in France, where they are currently based. Even saying that they are 'potential' illegal immigrants for the UK is ludicrous considering that they have nothing to gain from doing so, no benefits, no state provision, nothing. Only by seeking asylum do our government provide for these people and help them either get back to their country of origin or settle down and find work.

2. No, Corbyn's a bit too much of a wishy-washy centrist for my liking. Only when he comes out in wholehearted support of fully automated luxury communism will he join Vladimir and Fidel on my revered mantelpiece.

3. So you send the army in (which as Jamie points out is technically illegal (ooh look, your favourite word again) but I'll overlook that). How long are they staying for? What it seems to me would happen is you'd just end up with a stalemate of 4000 people living in a temporary slum guarded by a foreign army preventing them from moving. It would cost us millions, which could be spent in housing these people in this country instead, and create real tension between us and the Frogs. It's probably one of the stupidest ideas I've heard in this whole discussion, and given that derben's been pretty active, that's actually quite impressive.

4. You can't get all pissy about me having an issue with DC's use of a word then try and take the pish when I use a word you don't like.

5. I was trying to explain what causes people to migrate. Out of interest, what do you think causes it, if it isn't poverty, war and environmental catastrophe? Do you just think they're all on a wind up or something?

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 31 Jul 15 6.04pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 5.36pm

Mildly amusing I thought.


Out of interest, what do you think UKIP would be doing differently to the Tories if they were in power?

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Mr Palaceman Flag 31 Jul 15 6.16pm Send a Private Message to Mr Palaceman Add Mr Palaceman as a friend

Quote johnfirewall at 31 Jul 2015 12.40pm

Quote Mr Palaceman at 31 Jul 2015 10.23am

I have been watching this debate for a while and I agree with elements of both sides of the arguement but there are some myths that seem to get repeated time and time again and one of them is that everyone who comes here gets everything free. That just isn't true.

The truth is that migrants who come here put more in and take less out than the locals. They tend to work rather than claim benefits, so huge cost to the taxpayer I think not.

Historically the taxman has made more from immigration than is paid out in benefits for those that come and just claim. Having said that, why should anyone be allowed to claim anything, when they have not paid in or contributed in some way the the betterment of our nation.

I thought the 'myth' was that they were entitled to anything at all. Which is it?

We can all appreciate that previous waves of migration (I refuse to identify specific groups so as to avoid debate on their individual merits or lack of) has been positive the country, but times have changed and now we're universally known as a nation of handouts we're not going to get the same calibre of migrants.

Assuming a finite amount of work, an additional person with a job is going to equate to someone on the dole so it's not necessarily the newcomer claiming benefits. Again 'taking our jobs' and 'paying people to do nothing' are separate debates, I'm just pointing out the more basic economics people may be overlooking.

1 person on 20k odd will roughly pay for 1 person on the lowest benefits. On the basis of 50% of migrants working and paying tax you're talking a net gain of fcuk all. But you've got to consider that 99% will be coming over without a job and that those who've already secured one will likely have been put in touch with someone for cash in hand work.

Of course there are high earners from abroad but let's agree that none of those in Calais are going to be doctors and that letting them in is going to be of zero benefit to us. Even if they all worked they still may or may not claim benefits or pay tax. We don't even know how many there are. I don't really know how we've leapfrogged the discussion of the potential drain suddenly suggesting they'd offer a boost to the economy.

I reluctantly refer to the 'left' again, but they really do need to decide whether we should accommodate migrants because:

a) We can/ should
b) They will benefit the country.

..without alternating between the two when the other option has been disputed.

The other irritation is that the 'left' are about as willing as your average racist to distinguish between economic migrants and asylum cases. Not that I've got answers on how chose who we want and ensure we accept only those people, but any system than the indiscriminate acceptance of previous policy.

Edited by johnfirewall (31 Jul 2015 12.55pm)


Some who come will be entitled to help, it depends on the circumstances.

I have seen surgeons being interviewed, along with teachers and many other professionals but I do agree that this is a different situation to what has happened before, just due to the growing scale of it.

There is another economic cost and that is the effect on trade from the delays. I ordered something important for my work from a UK company that had to order in from Germany. It should have arrived in 3 or 4 days but it took 3 weeks. I am now fighting to hit a promised deadline.

 


"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 31 Jul 15 6.17pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Quote davenotamonkey at 31 Jul 2015 3.17pm

Quote serial thriller at 31 Jul 2015 1.02am

I genuinely don't believe that we are that far from seeing a policy of murder being pursuited by the British government towards these people. Cameron has channeled the prominent animal terminology which the media have been using, while government policy rests uncomfortably between non-intervention (which will lead to thousands of deaths as the winter months approach) and aggressive action (sending in the army, whatever that's supposed to achieve).

As has been said before ad infinitum, the referencing of human beings as animals has been a precursor to murder throughout history, be it the Jews under the Nazis, through the Rwandan genocide and Indians in the Raj to the Slave trade and everything in between. What's equally as concerning is that these people are now citizenless, without defence should a state that they don't belong to and have never set foot in decide to exterminate them.

I think we're finding ourselves at a real tipping point, because there are now more displaced people in the world than ever before, and that number only looks set to increase as wealth inequality rises, climate change continues to take effect and resources become more and more scarce. In fact it could be one of the defining issues of the century, and it is incumbent on the leader's of the world to find a solution to the problem which doesn't merely involve large-scale temporary resettlement or, worse still, the deaths of millions of the poorest people in the world.

You owe me a new hysterical-hyperbole meter. You just blew up my old one.


Mine's still in for repairs from that day Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU. Exploded faster than a teenage virgin in the playboy mansion.

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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leggedstruggle Flag Croydon 31 Jul 15 6.49pm

Quote serial thriller at 31 Jul 2015 6.04pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 5.36pm

Mildly amusing I thought.


Out of interest, what do you think UKIP would be doing differently to the Tories if they were in power?

Of particular interest to me would be: organising our exit from the EU. Introducing tight controls on immigration. Deporting illegal immigrants. Leaving the European Court of Human Rights.
Here is link to the rest of their policies that are in their manifesto.
[Link]

 


mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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ghosteagle Flag 31 Jul 15 6.57pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 6.49pm

Quote serial thriller at 31 Jul 2015 6.04pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 5.36pm

Mildly amusing I thought.


Out of interest, what do you think UKIP would be doing differently to the Tories if they were in power?

Of particular interest to me would be: organising our exit from the EU. Introducing tight controls on immigration. Deporting illegal immigrants. Leaving the European Court of Human Rights.
Here is link to the rest of their policies that are in their manifesto.
[Link]

As i understand it, leaving the ECHR would have to occur first before the changes to immigration could be implemented.

 

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leggedstruggle Flag Croydon 31 Jul 15 7.01pm

Quote ghosteagle at 31 Jul 2015 6.57pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 6.49pm

Quote serial thriller at 31 Jul 2015 6.04pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 5.36pm

Mildly amusing I thought.


Out of interest, what do you think UKIP would be doing differently to the Tories if they were in power?

Of particular interest to me would be: organising our exit from the EU. Introducing tight controls on immigration. Deporting illegal immigrants. Leaving the European Court of Human Rights.
Here is link to the rest of their policies that are in their manifesto.
[Link]

As i understand it, leaving the ECHR would have to occur first before the changes to immigration could be implemented.

That doesn't surprise me - just part of the struggle to regain control of our own laws and country.

 


mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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Mr Palaceman Flag 31 Jul 15 7.09pm Send a Private Message to Mr Palaceman Add Mr Palaceman as a friend

Quote davenotamonkey at 31 Jul 2015 3.15pm

Quote Mr Palaceman at 31 Jul 2015 10.23am

Quote Tom-the-eagle at 31 Jul 2015 7.40am

I am writing this having been up since 6 this morning working, I am also writing this having just paid a (what was for me) huge amount for my half yearly tax last night which I (or my family) cannot really afford. On that basis, excuse me if I do not sound too sympathetic towards these economic migrants who would all be entitled to free healthcare, education, benefits and housing, for which I would need to start work even earlier in the morning in order to be able to pay even more tax to make sure all their needs are met when I, a small business owner, an employer, get absolutely sweet FA in help from the government even though I work 7 days a week just to put bread on my kids table. Do people not understand – all these people come at a HUGE cost to us, the taxpayer.
Rant over. Have a good days peeps.

I have been watching this debate for a while and I agree with elements of both sides of the arguement but there are some myths that seem to get repeated time and time again and one of them is that everyone who comes here gets everything free. That just isn't true.

The truth is that migrants who come here put more in and take less out than the locals. They tend to work rather than claim benefits, so huge cost to the taxpayer I think not.

You can't have it both ways, hand-wringing lefists:

1. If they are asylum seekers from the war-torn oppressive French regime, then they CANNOT work for 5 years in the UK, and will be put up, fed and housed by Mr. Taxpayer.

2. If they are migrants coming to work, then they should apply for a work visa like EVERYWHERE else in the world*. If, as you claim, we are so in need of Eritrean restaurants in the UK that their presence will be a positive for the country (that is, not solely the economy, but in relation to society, service provision, security), then by all means grant them a work visa.

*Caveat: if you are part of the "white-countries" EU club, you can go and "settle" ("freedom of movement", as you need not "work" in the UK without anyone batting an eyelid. But that's not racist.

3. To your point regarding the wonderful amazing benefits of immigration, I refer you to (though doubt you will read) the findings of this report:

Press release:
[Link]
Report [pdf, look at Page 66 for the conclusions]:
[Link]

"If many of the immigrants fail to get jobs, or if they end up in low skill jobs or displace native workers, large-scale immigration will have a negative impact on GDP per capita and on government finances. Thus, the impact could be positive or negative but either way it is unlikely to be very large.

"The only thing that is certain is that immigration on the present scale, if it continues, will lead to much faster population growth and a much larger total GDP than would otherwise be the case, with consequent pressure on infrastructure and the environment."

Feel free to rubbish the findings of course: he's only a Professor of Economics at Cambridge.

“You can't have it both ways, hand-wringing lefists:”

I am neither wringing my hands or a LEFIST..

“To your point regarding the wonderful amazing benefits of immigration, I refer you to (though doubt you will read) the findings of this report”

If you post in reply to my post, why would you assume that I wouldn’t read it. I don’t know where that came from and I didn’t say anything about the wonderful benefit of immigration as you put it

In regards to me rubbishing your posted report, why would I do that. I think it is obvious that if you just open the borders to anyone who wants to come, then there will consequences. I don't believe that unfettered migration is good for any country. As I said, there are other things to consider, such as the social impact of immigration, aside from the economics.

My main point is that this is not going to go away by putting up an extra fence, it is only going to get worse unless Europe as a whole develops a common strategy to stabilise the countries where these people come from.

 


"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 31 Jul 15 7.21pm Send a Private Message to Cucking Funt Add Cucking Funt as a friend

Quote ghosteagle at 31 Jul 2015 6.57pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 6.49pm

Quote serial thriller at 31 Jul 2015 6.04pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 5.36pm

Mildly amusing I thought.


Out of interest, what do you think UKIP would be doing differently to the Tories if they were in power?

Of particular interest to me would be: organising our exit from the EU. Introducing tight controls on immigration. Deporting illegal immigrants. Leaving the European Court of Human Rights.
Here is link to the rest of their policies that are in their manifesto.
[Link]

As i understand it, leaving the ECHR would have to occur first before the changes to immigration could be implemented.


You can't leave the ECHR. It's not something you join, it's a convention you sign up to. And, critically, withdraw your signature from.

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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ghosteagle Flag 31 Jul 15 7.28pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote Cucking Funt at 31 Jul 2015 7.21pm

Quote ghosteagle at 31 Jul 2015 6.57pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 6.49pm

Quote serial thriller at 31 Jul 2015 6.04pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 31 Jul 2015 5.36pm

Mildly amusing I thought.


Out of interest, what do you think UKIP would be doing differently to the Tories if they were in power?

Of particular interest to me would be: organising our exit from the EU. Introducing tight controls on immigration. Deporting illegal immigrants. Leaving the European Court of Human Rights.
Here is link to the rest of their policies that are in their manifesto.
[Link]

As i understand it, leaving the ECHR would have to occur first before the changes to immigration could be implemented.


You can't leave the ECHR. It's not something you join, it's a convention you sign up to. And, critically, withdraw your signature from.

Ah semantics, how fun. I apologise and stand corrected.

 

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