Gaza Strip 'invades' Israel.

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Gaza Strip 'invades' Israel.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 18 Oct 23 1.23pm
Originally posted by HKOwen Are you saying 135,000 people were killed in the bombing of Dresden? At the time the Germans put the number at 22000 which rose a bit as bodies were discovered. [Link] The 135,000 number has long been totally discredited and 25000 is a horrific number but not as horrific as 135000 would be if it were anywhere near the reality. "According to the official German report Tagesbefehl (Order of the Day) no. 47 ("TB47" issued on 22 March, the number of dead recovered by that date was 20,204, including 6,865 who were cremated on the Altmarkt square, and they expected the total number of deaths to be about 25,000.[92][93] Another report on 3 April put the number of corpses recovered at 22,096.[94] Three municipal and 17 rural cemeteries outside Dresden recorded up to 30 April 1945 a total of at least 21,895 buried bodies from the Dresden raids, including those cremated on the Altmarkt." Your number of 135000 seems to have originated from Holocaust denier David Irving. Carry on Edited by HKOwen (18 Oct 2023 1.10pm) Nice try NYT article from the 60s. Long before he decided to turn into a raving lunatic. You should read both recent accounts and historical ones for balance. There is also no definitive number, as there are too many unknowns. That said, the point here is the same whether I had gone with 25,000, 35,000 or 250,000 – indiscriminate or over zealous bombing, violence and death of civilian populations when other options are available is unnecessary, inhuman and despicable, no matter what. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 18 Oct 23 1.23pm

Originally posted by HKOwen

Are you saying 135,000 people were killed in the bombing of Dresden?

At the time the Germans put the number at 22000 which rose a bit as bodies were discovered.

[Link]

The 135,000 number has long been totally discredited and 25000 is a horrific number but not as horrific as 135000 would be if it were anywhere near the reality.

"According to the official German report Tagesbefehl (Order of the Day) no. 47 ("TB47" issued on 22 March, the number of dead recovered by that date was 20,204, including 6,865 who were cremated on the Altmarkt square, and they expected the total number of deaths to be about 25,000.[92][93] Another report on 3 April put the number of corpses recovered at 22,096.[94] Three municipal and 17 rural cemeteries outside Dresden recorded up to 30 April 1945 a total of at least 21,895 buried bodies from the Dresden raids, including those cremated on the Altmarkt."

Your number of 135000 seems to have originated from Holocaust denier David Irving.

Carry on

Edited by HKOwen (18 Oct 2023 1.10pm)

Nice try

NYT article from the 60s. Long before he decided to turn into a raving lunatic. You should read both recent accounts and historical ones for balance.

There is also no definitive number, as there are too many unknowns.

That said, the point here is the same whether I had gone with 25,000, 35,000 or 250,000 – indiscriminate or over zealous bombing, violence and death of civilian populations when other options are available is unnecessary, inhuman and despicable, no matter what.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 18 Oct 23 1.30pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC Nice try NYT article from the 60s. Long before he decided to turn into a raving lunatic. You should read both recent accounts and historical ones for balance. There is also no definitive number, as there are too many unknowns. That said, the point here is the same whether I had gone with 25,000, 35,000 or 250,000 – indiscriminate or over zealous bombing, violence and death of civilian populations when other options are available is unnecessary, inhuman and despicable, no matter what. But what if I can use that number to pedantically point score in an attempt to mask the fact I have nothing of substance to contribute..?
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 18 Oct 23 1.30pm

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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Nice try

NYT article from the 60s. Long before he decided to turn into a raving lunatic. You should read both recent accounts and historical ones for balance.

There is also no definitive number, as there are too many unknowns.

But what if I can use that number to pedantically point score in an attempt to mask the fact I have nothing of substance to contribute..?

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 18 Oct 23 1.33pm
Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow But what if I can use that number to pedantically point score in an attempt to mask the fact I have nothing of substance to contribute..? Well quite Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 18 Oct 23 1.33pm

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

But what if I can use that number to pedantically point score in an attempt to mask the fact I have nothing of substance to contribute..?

Well quite

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Sheks Crows Eye Virginia 18 Oct 23 1.44pm
Wild how much of the Arab world, enabled by leftie terrorist sympathetic journalists bought the Hamas propaganda last night that the IDF blew up the hospital. Some of the dumbest, low IQ people have ascended to positions of such influence i'm afraid.
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Sheks Crows Eye

Virginia 18 Oct 23 1.44pm

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Wild how much of the Arab world, enabled by leftie terrorist sympathetic journalists bought the Hamas propaganda last night that the IDF blew up the hospital.

Some of the dumbest, low IQ people have ascended to positions of such influence i'm afraid.

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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Oct 23 1.51pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC Drop the jingoism for a second and think rationally. Dresden's military sites and the railway system could have been targeted rather than deliberately wiping out an entire city. Even Churchill regretted that particular act. Much like Israel choosing to bomb indiscriminately, far less civilians could have been killed to create the same tactical outcome. Also – Dresden was important but let's not get carried away and say it was the sole reason the war ended. Edited by SW19 CPFC (18 Oct 2023 1.10pm) You don't know anything about the real tactical reasons for bombing. You also know nothing about ultimate outcomes. You read history books and watch TV. The ultimate objective is to defeat an enemy who wants to kill you. Drop the virtue signalling. How would you respond if your family and friends were in imminent danger?
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Hrolf The Ganger

18 Oct 23 1.51pm

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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Drop the jingoism for a second and think rationally.

Dresden's military sites and the railway system could have been targeted rather than deliberately wiping out an entire city.

Even Churchill regretted that particular act.

Much like Israel choosing to bomb indiscriminately, far less civilians could have been killed to create the same tactical outcome.

Also – Dresden was important but let's not get carried away and say it was the sole reason the war ended.

Edited by SW19 CPFC (18 Oct 2023 1.10pm)

You don't know anything about the real tactical reasons for bombing. You also know nothing about ultimate outcomes.
You read history books and watch TV.

The ultimate objective is to defeat an enemy who wants to kill you.
Drop the virtue signalling. How would you respond if your family and friends were in imminent danger?

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steeleye20 Croydon 18 Oct 23 1.58pm
Mr.Sanity, Andrew Marr, here on the situation as at 16th October before the hospital bombing and Biden. [Link] Interesting that the yougov poll shoes the public do not favour the pro-Israeli stance of the conservative and labour parties. Also Starmer's lack of appreciation of the humanitarian situation would cost him seats.
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steeleye20

Croydon 18 Oct 23 1.58pm

Mr.Sanity, Andrew Marr, here on the situation as at 16th October before the hospital bombing and Biden.

[Link]

Interesting that the yougov poll shoes the public do not favour the pro-Israeli stance of the conservative and labour parties.

Also Starmer's lack of appreciation of the humanitarian situation would cost him seats.

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HKOwen Hong Kong 18 Oct 23 2.04pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Mr.Sanity, Andrew Marr, here on the situation as at 16th October before the hospital bombing and Biden. [Link] Interesting that the yougov poll shoes the public do not favour the pro-Israeli stance of the conservative and labour parties. Also Starmer's lack of appreciation of the humanitarian situation would cost him seats. If that is so, where would the seats go to, which party? Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.
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HKOwen

Hong Kong 18 Oct 23 2.04pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Mr.Sanity, Andrew Marr, here on the situation as at 16th October before the hospital bombing and Biden.

[Link]

Interesting that the yougov poll shoes the public do not favour the pro-Israeli stance of the conservative and labour parties.

Also Starmer's lack of appreciation of the humanitarian situation would cost him seats.

If that is so, where would the seats go to, which party?

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 18 Oct 23 2.06pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You don't know anything about the real tactical reasons for bombing. You also know nothing about ultimate outcomes. You read history books and watch TV. The ultimate objective is to defeat an enemy who wants to kill you. Drop the virtue signalling. How would you respond if your family and friends were in imminent danger? Ah the old classic VS trope to deflect... I (we all) do in fact know a good level of detail about the real tactical reasons for bombing in the case of Dresden, precisely because of history books and 'TV'. The ultimate point is Dresden is a good parallel to Hamas initial attack, and ongoing attempts at missile strikes, and Israels response. Both indiscriminately bombing (mainly civilians and civilian infrastructure) and both over-zealous, to put it mildly. You're right on ultimate objective, but there are many, many, many different ways of achieving that same goal. Some far worse than others. 'How would you respond' – Differently, obvs. But I'm lucky enough not to be in that position aren't I? So I can be more rational and objective, less emotive and reactive. That's the point Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.
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SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 18 Oct 23 2.06pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You don't know anything about the real tactical reasons for bombing. You also know nothing about ultimate outcomes.
You read history books and watch TV.

The ultimate objective is to defeat an enemy who wants to kill you.
Drop the virtue signalling. How would you respond if your family and friends were in imminent danger?

Ah the old classic VS trope to deflect...

I (we all) do in fact know a good level of detail about the real tactical reasons for bombing in the case of Dresden, precisely because of history books and 'TV'.

The ultimate point is Dresden is a good parallel to Hamas initial attack, and ongoing attempts at missile strikes, and Israels response. Both indiscriminately bombing (mainly civilians and civilian infrastructure) and both over-zealous, to put it mildly.

You're right on ultimate objective, but there are many, many, many different ways of achieving that same goal. Some far worse than others.

'How would you respond' – Differently, obvs.

But I'm lucky enough not to be in that position aren't I? So I can be more rational and objective, less emotive and reactive.

That's the point

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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georgenorman 18 Oct 23 2.19pm
Now appears highly likely that Hamas fired rockets at their own hospital. What lovely people some on here support.
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georgenorman

18 Oct 23 2.19pm

Now appears highly likely that Hamas fired rockets at their own hospital. What lovely people some on here support.

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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Oct 23 2.22pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC Ah the old classic VS trope to deflect... I (we all) do in fact know a good level of detail about the real tactical reasons for bombing in the case of Dresden, precisely because of history books and 'TV'. The ultimate point is Dresden is a good parallel to Hamas initial attack, and ongoing attempts at missile strikes, and Israels response. Both indiscriminately bombing (mainly civilians and civilian infrastructure) and both over-zealous, to put it mildly. You're right on ultimate objective, but there are many, many, many different ways of achieving that same goal. Some far worse than others. 'How would you respond' – Differently, obvs. But I'm lucky enough not to be in that position aren't I? So I can be more rational and objective, less emotive and reactive. That's the point Fortunately, neither of us have to make such enormous life and death decisions. I'm particularly glad that you don't, because I would probably not exist or might be speaking German or Russian. It's easy to be an armchair lefty, but the reality is that the responsibility for a nation's security sometimes means that you have to take drastic action when outcomes can only be speculated about and are not in history books. There will never be peace on this Earth while humans occupy it. In fact, war will only become more common as resources become more scarce. Accept that and you will sleep better.
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Hrolf The Ganger

18 Oct 23 2.22pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Ah the old classic VS trope to deflect...

I (we all) do in fact know a good level of detail about the real tactical reasons for bombing in the case of Dresden, precisely because of history books and 'TV'.

You're right on ultimate objective, but there are many, many, many different ways of achieving that same goal. Some far worse than others.

'How would you respond' – Differently, obvs.

But I'm lucky enough not to be in that position aren't I? So I can be more rational and objective, less emotive and reactive.

That's the point

Fortunately, neither of us have to make such enormous life and death decisions.
I'm particularly glad that you don't, because I would probably not exist or might be speaking German or Russian.

It's easy to be an armchair lefty, but the reality is that the responsibility for a nation's security sometimes means that you have to take drastic action when outcomes can only be speculated about and are not in history books.

There will never be peace on this Earth while humans occupy it.
In fact, war will only become more common as resources become more scarce.
Accept that and you will sleep better.

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Hrolf The Ganger 18 Oct 23 2.23pm
Originally posted by georgenorman Now appears highly likely that Hamas fired rockets at their own hospital. What lovely people some on here support. Does anyone doubt that the Palestinian people have two enemies?
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Hrolf The Ganger

18 Oct 23 2.23pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

Now appears highly likely that Hamas fired rockets at their own hospital. What lovely people some on here support.

Does anyone doubt that the Palestinian people have two enemies?

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Sheks Crows Eye Virginia 18 Oct 23 2.36pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Does anyone doubt that the Palestinian people have two enemies? It is not an exaggeration to say that people who are pro-Palestine, in any political sense, are pro-Hamas. Hamas is the elected government of the currently prominent chunk of Palestine.
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Sheks Crows Eye

Virginia 18 Oct 23 2.36pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Does anyone doubt that the Palestinian people have two enemies?

It is not an exaggeration to say that people who are pro-Palestine, in any political sense, are pro-Hamas.

Hamas is the elected government of the currently prominent chunk of Palestine.

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