British Values?

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British Values?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Mar 17 10.42am
Originally posted by nickgusset Lots of regressives hark back to the 50s as being halcyon days... Despite the fact that crime was higher as a percentage of the population, particually violent crime and reporting of violent crime, was much lower due to it being seen as acceptable, for example, for young men to batter one another on a Friday night. Also specific groups of victims of crime were largely ignored particularly women in terms of domestic violence and sex crimes, violence against homosexuals and immigrants. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Mar 17 10.42am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Lots of regressives hark back to the 50s as being halcyon days...

Despite the fact that crime was higher as a percentage of the population, particually violent crime and reporting of violent crime, was much lower due to it being seen as acceptable, for example, for young men to batter one another on a Friday night.

Also specific groups of victims of crime were largely ignored particularly women in terms of domestic violence and sex crimes, violence against homosexuals and immigrants.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 03 Mar 17 10.43am
I'm still trying to get my head around the assertion that the left don't care about ordinary people.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 03 Mar 17 10.43am

I'm still trying to get my head around the assertion that the left don't care about ordinary people.

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Midlands Eagle 03 Mar 17 10.48am
Originally posted by Pista Rolls Royce is a British PLC and all of it's shares are traded on the London Stock Exchange. It isn't owned by BMW. My post was in response to Hrolf claim that immigrants commit more crime than the existing population. Of course street crime is a concern but I see no evidence that more of it is committed by immigrants. I don't normally get involved in General Talk when the clique are in full flow but you picked a very unusual example of corporate crime. Rolls Royce appear to have bribed people to win contracts that kept thousands of British workers employed and from a xenophobic point of view it was positive for Britain
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Midlands Eagle

03 Mar 17 10.48am

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Originally posted by Pista

Rolls Royce is a British PLC and all of it's shares are traded on the London Stock Exchange. It isn't owned by BMW.

My post was in response to Hrolf claim that immigrants commit more crime than the existing population. Of course street crime is a concern but I see no evidence that more of it is committed by immigrants.

I don't normally get involved in General Talk when the clique are in full flow but you picked a very unusual example of corporate crime.

Rolls Royce appear to have bribed people to win contracts that kept thousands of British workers employed and from a xenophobic point of view it was positive for Britain

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Mar 17 10.49am
Originally posted by nickgusset I'm still trying to get my head around the assertion that the left don't care about ordinary people. I love the idea that the Right really care, as can be seen with how they handle public services. Although I do think that anyone who believes that politicians care about the ordinary people is a fool. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Mar 17 10.49am

Originally posted by nickgusset

I'm still trying to get my head around the assertion that the left don't care about ordinary people.

I love the idea that the Right really care, as can be seen with how they handle public services.

Although I do think that anyone who believes that politicians care about the ordinary people is a fool.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 03 Mar 17 11.41am
Originally posted by Islington Eagle That is the wrong "Rolls Royce" [Link] OK, I got confused with Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited which is wholly owned by BMW. The main point really is that the old lady who has her life savings stolen should be more of a concern to ordinary decent people than some backhanders betweeen businesses. The liberal left are more worried about attacking the wicked Capitalists than in doing anything to protect old ladies. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 03 Mar 17 11.41am

Originally posted by Islington Eagle

That is the wrong "Rolls Royce"

[Link]

OK, I got confused with Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited which is wholly owned by BMW.
The main point really is that the old lady who has her life savings stolen should be more of a concern to ordinary decent people than some backhanders betweeen businesses. The liberal left are more worried about attacking the wicked Capitalists than in doing anything to protect old ladies.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Mar 17 12.10pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 OK, I got confused with Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited which is wholly owned by BMW. The main point really is that the old lady who has her life savings stolen should be more of a concern to ordinary decent people than some backhanders betweeen businesses. The liberal left are more worried about attacking the wicked Capitalists than in doing anything to protect old ladies. No, both are serious criminal offences, and have very different implications and impacts - To me, they are equally important. I would tend however to focus more on the latter, given that corporate corruption tends to get overlooked in law enforcement, whilst robbery arrests and convictions are fairly common place. I think you haven't thought through the impact of corruption and its impact on peoples lives. Losing contracts can mean hundreds of people being laid off, poor quality of services and products, lower standards of manufacturing and production creating risks to health. Waste Disposal companies in Italy, have resulted in numerous environmental catastrophies and health issues, because of corrupt officals accepting bribes to award contracts for dangerous waste disposal to companies that have just been dumping toxic waste as normal waste. Arguably the impact of such things exceeds one person. Bribes and backhanders are used to get contracts and business, companies otherwise would not receive, and typically will not fulfil to the same level as other applicants (who's business will then unfairly lose out financially). So yeah, they're both important, once you take emotional appeal out of the equation. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Mar 17 12.10pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

OK, I got confused with Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited which is wholly owned by BMW.
The main point really is that the old lady who has her life savings stolen should be more of a concern to ordinary decent people than some backhanders betweeen businesses. The liberal left are more worried about attacking the wicked Capitalists than in doing anything to protect old ladies.

No, both are serious criminal offences, and have very different implications and impacts - To me, they are equally important.

I would tend however to focus more on the latter, given that corporate corruption tends to get overlooked in law enforcement, whilst robbery arrests and convictions are fairly common place.

I think you haven't thought through the impact of corruption and its impact on peoples lives. Losing contracts can mean hundreds of people being laid off, poor quality of services and products, lower standards of manufacturing and production creating risks to health.

Waste Disposal companies in Italy, have resulted in numerous environmental catastrophies and health issues, because of corrupt officals accepting bribes to award contracts for dangerous waste disposal to companies that have just been dumping toxic waste as normal waste.

Arguably the impact of such things exceeds one person.

Bribes and backhanders are used to get contracts and business, companies otherwise would not receive, and typically will not fulfil to the same level as other applicants (who's business will then unfairly lose out financially).

So yeah, they're both important, once you take emotional appeal out of the equation.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Mar 17 12.13pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 OK, I got confused with Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited which is wholly owned by BMW. The main point really is that the old lady who has her life savings stolen should be more of a concern to ordinary decent people than some backhanders betweeen businesses. The liberal left are more worried about attacking the wicked Capitalists than in doing anything to protect old ladies. Because the law does have a number of criminal codes that deal with theft and robbery, that are well defined and in use of a regular basis perhaps, where as backhanders, bribes, gifts, freebies, lucrative positions and corruption seem to be largely well accepted in terms of doing business and ignored. Are the police not investigating crimes where someone has been robbed, defrauded or cheated out of their life savings? "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Mar 17 12.13pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Because the law does have a number of criminal codes that deal with theft and robbery, that are well defined and in use of a regular basis perhaps, where as backhanders, bribes, gifts, freebies, lucrative positions and corruption seem to be largely well accepted in terms of doing business and ignored.

Are the police not investigating crimes where someone has been robbed, defrauded or cheated out of their life savings?

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 03 Mar 17 12.34pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 And the conservative right will insist that immigrants commit more crime than non-immigrants, with both presenting poor statistical analysis that fits their agenda. Of course, the actual liberal left would argue that crime isn't a factor of immigration, but of economic and social factors, pointing at the fact that even prior to immigration or areas with low immigration that crime is still associated with social and economic factors, and then use the evidence to undermine the position that being an immigrant is a significant factor, the social and economic situation associating immigrants in a society are. Which isn't liberal, its scientifically established, that when you look at crime stats over periods of time, economic and social factors play a more significant role that in ethnicity. Of course this is an inconvenient truth for right wing conservatives, who typically aren't interested in answers that actually would require spending increases to resolve, so ethnicity and immigration becomes a convenient means of masking the fact. But realistically no one would argue that their is really a racial, genetic or significant cultural predisposition to criminality that exceeds economic and social motivators. Most likely true but that is as useful as saying that if there was no oxygen, no crime would be committed. The fact is that by allowing mass immigration we create an environment where crime takes place. Those coming here unqualified are disadvantaged by their ethnicity, their language,their lack of local knowledge and in many cases a lack of willingness to blend with the wider community through religion or insecurity. That does not include those who's main reason for coming here is to run or work for organised crime. You don't need to blame ethnicity, you just blame circumstances. Circumstances that the governments create for economic reasons and we have to tolerate. The bottom line is that inconvenient truths are not just on the right.
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Hrolf The Ganger

03 Mar 17 12.34pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

And the conservative right will insist that immigrants commit more crime than non-immigrants, with both presenting poor statistical analysis that fits their agenda.

Of course, the actual liberal left would argue that crime isn't a factor of immigration, but of economic and social factors, pointing at the fact that even prior to immigration or areas with low immigration that crime is still associated with social and economic factors, and then use the evidence to undermine the position that being an immigrant is a significant factor, the social and economic situation associating immigrants in a society are.

Which isn't liberal, its scientifically established, that when you look at crime stats over periods of time, economic and social factors play a more significant role that in ethnicity.

Of course this is an inconvenient truth for right wing conservatives, who typically aren't interested in answers that actually would require spending increases to resolve, so ethnicity and immigration becomes a convenient means of masking the fact.

But realistically no one would argue that their is really a racial, genetic or significant cultural predisposition to criminality that exceeds economic and social motivators.

Most likely true but that is as useful as saying that if there was no oxygen, no crime would be committed.

The fact is that by allowing mass immigration we create an environment where crime takes place. Those coming here unqualified are disadvantaged by their ethnicity, their language,their lack of local knowledge and in many cases a lack of willingness to blend with the wider community through religion or insecurity. That does not include those who's main reason for coming here is to run or work for organised crime.
You don't need to blame ethnicity, you just blame circumstances. Circumstances that the governments create for economic reasons and we have to tolerate.

The bottom line is that inconvenient truths are not just on the right.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 03 Mar 17 12.45pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Because the law does have a number of criminal codes that deal with theft and robbery, that are well defined and in use of a regular basis perhaps, where as backhanders, bribes, gifts, freebies, lucrative positions and corruption seem to be largely well accepted in terms of doing business and ignored. Are the police not investigating crimes where someone has been robbed, defrauded or cheated out of their life savings? My point was aimed at the poster who was more or less saying a few nicked wallets and old ladies losing their life savings does not matter. He then got all indignant about those Capitalists in top hats smoking cigars. Also of course plenty of corruption in public services. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 03 Mar 17 12.45pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Are the police not investigating crimes where someone has been robbed, defrauded or cheated out of their life savings?

My point was aimed at the poster who was more or less saying a few nicked wallets and old ladies losing their life savings does not matter. He then got all indignant about those Capitalists in top hats smoking cigars. Also of course plenty of corruption in public services.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 03 Mar 17 12.48pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 But realistically no one would argue that their is really a racial, genetic or significant cultural predisposition to criminality that exceeds economic and social motivators. self-censored - discretion the better part of valour Edited by hedgehog50 (03 Mar 2017 12.53pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 03 Mar 17 12.48pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

But realistically no one would argue that their is really a racial, genetic or significant cultural predisposition to criminality that exceeds economic and social motivators.

self-censored - discretion the better part of valour

Edited by hedgehog50 (03 Mar 2017 12.53pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Mar 17 1.07pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Most likely true but that is as useful as saying that if there was no oxygen, no crime would be committed. The fact is that by allowing mass immigration we create an environment where crime takes place. Those coming here unqualified are disadvantaged by their ethnicity, their language,their lack of local knowledge and in many cases a lack of willingness to blend with the wider community through religion or insecurity. That does not include those who's main reason for coming here is to run or work for organised crime. You don't need to blame ethnicity, you just blame circumstances. Circumstances that the governments create for economic reasons and we have to tolerate. The bottom line is that inconvenient truths are not just on the right. I disagree, migration doesn't create the environment, that environment was already there, it does however often change the people who are committing the crime. Yes, migrant communities are likely to end up in poorer and more socially deprived areas, and as such more affected by crime indicators in some instances - however its not always the case. Indian migration (and to a lesser extent pakistani migration) in the 70s and 80s, didn't really result in a spike in ethnic crime, despite the tendency for these groups to end up in poor and deprived areas. Indeed, statistically people within these groups were more likely to experience crime and violence, than be the perpetrator of it. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Mar 17 1.07pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Most likely true but that is as useful as saying that if there was no oxygen, no crime would be committed.

The bottom line is that inconvenient truths are not just on the right.

I disagree, migration doesn't create the environment, that environment was already there, it does however often change the people who are committing the crime. Yes, migrant communities are likely to end up in poorer and more socially deprived areas, and as such more affected by crime indicators in some instances - however its not always the case. Indian migration (and to a lesser extent pakistani migration) in the 70s and 80s, didn't really result in a spike in ethnic crime, despite the tendency for these groups to end up in poor and deprived areas. Indeed, statistically people within these groups were more likely to experience crime and violence, than be the perpetrator of it.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Mar 17 1.08pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 My point was aimed at the poster who was more or less saying a few nicked wallets and old ladies losing their life savings does not matter. He then got all indignant about those Capitalists in top hats smoking cigars. Also of course plenty of corruption in public services. It all must matter, each citizens rights are as important as the next citizens rights. Most of the corruption in public services, is however around external contract provision from the private sector and its quite blatant. Sorry that should be each citizens rights must/should be as important as the next citizens. Edited by jamiemartin721 (03 Mar 2017 3.08pm) "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 03 Mar 17 1.08pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

It all must matter, each citizens rights are as important as the next citizens rights. Most of the corruption in public services, is however around external contract provision from the private sector and its quite blatant.

Sorry that should be each citizens rights must/should be as important as the next citizens.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (03 Mar 2017 3.08pm)

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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