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Percy of Peckham Flag Eton Mess 05 May 15 8.49pm Send a Private Message to Percy of Peckham Add Percy of Peckham as a friend

I'm voting green like this gent [Link]

 


Denial is not just a river in Egypt!

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 05 May 15 11.01pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 12.22pm

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.58am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 8.54am

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.03am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 7.36am

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 10.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 04 May 2015 9.30pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.38pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 8.28pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.24pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 7.56pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 7.15pm

The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.


Thank you for what comes across as reasoned response. A rarity on these boards at the moment.

In answer to your points:

Paragraph 1 - completely agree. We have to have a debate about the NHS and how we will pay for it. Anything else is sticking your head in the sand;

Paragraph 2 - this is one of the areas where the left lose me in debate. To me there is little need for immigration on the scale it currently is. We have a significant proportion of under 25 unemployment and a significant number of over 55's who want to work. Immigrants are largely filling the jobs those people could do. I don't disagree that immigration has enriched our culture but there comes a time when we have to think about the effects of tourist workers and indigenous workers not being able to compete. Furthermore, most foreign workers are forced to accept s*** pay and conditions and we are, to some extent, creating a modern Victorian workplace. Quite how that sits comfortably with the left, I don't know. The irony is that because the left do t want to appear racist, they are prepared to support the labour conditions the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the Jarrow marchers fought against!

Paragraph 3 - we are the worlds seventh largest economy, he largest financial district on the region by a country mile, a place where several million EU citizens live and an economy that benefits surrounding economies by billions of pounds. Do I think we could agree a good deal? Yes! The Eurozone is in crisis. They would have the same need to find a solution as much as we would never history has dictated that divorces like the Brexit have been handled in an amicable manner;

Paragraph 4 - paranoid bulls***;

Paragraph 5 - the first bunch of accusations are wholly inaccurate and prejudiced. You seem intelligent. Think for yourself not what you are told to think. The second bunch of stuf, who said UKIP wants to 'sever' ties with Europe? No one has said that. UKIP wants us to have destiny and self determination and not be beholden to an undemocratic and unwieldy beast.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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legaleagle Flag 05 May 15 11.14pm

Quote Jimenez at 25 Apr 2015 8.34pm

Quote nickgusset at 25 Apr 2015 12.28am

[Link]

When Dave Nellist (TUSC leader) was a labour MP, he took a workers wage, which he will still do if elected - as will any other of their candidates. Don't see any other prospective mp's doing that.


Gesture politics of the worst kind, albeit well meaning. When NYC had Billionaire Michael Bloomberg as Mayor he paid himself a dollar a year It means nothing.

I agree completely re Bloomberg.It can mean somewhat more of a meaningful gesture when the politician is not well off in any meaning of the word (Nellist), as opposed to Bloomberg (estimated wealth $36 billion).

Anyway, no one could accuse "man of the people" Nigel F of having made any kind of gesture,meaningless or otherwise.

[Link]


Edited by legaleagle (05 May 2015 11.21pm)

 

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silvertop Flag Portishead 06 May 15 10.15am Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 11.01pm

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 12.22pm

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.58am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 8.54am

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.03am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 7.36am

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 10.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 04 May 2015 9.30pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.38pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 8.28pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.24pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 7.56pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 7.15pm

The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.


Thank you for what comes across as reasoned response. A rarity on these boards at the moment.

In answer to your points:

Paragraph 1 - completely agree. We have to have a debate about the NHS and how we will pay for it. Anything else is sticking your head in the sand;

Paragraph 2 - this is one of the areas where the left lose me in debate. To me there is little need for immigration on the scale it currently is. We have a significant proportion of under 25 unemployment and a significant number of over 55's who want to work. Immigrants are largely filling the jobs those people could do. I don't disagree that immigration has enriched our culture but there comes a time when we have to think about the effects of tourist workers and indigenous workers not being able to compete. Furthermore, most foreign workers are forced to accept s*** pay and conditions and we are, to some extent, creating a modern Victorian workplace. Quite how that sits comfortably with the left, I don't know. The irony is that because the left do t want to appear racist, they are prepared to support the labour conditions the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the Jarrow marchers fought against!

Paragraph 3 - we are the worlds seventh largest economy, he largest financial district on the region by a country mile, a place where several million EU citizens live and an economy that benefits surrounding economies by billions of pounds. Do I think we could agree a good deal? Yes! The Eurozone is in crisis. They would have the same need to find a solution as much as we would never history has dictated that divorces like the Brexit have been handled in an amicable manner;

Paragraph 4 - paranoid bulls***;

Paragraph 5 - the first bunch of accusations are wholly inaccurate and prejudiced. You seem intelligent. Think for yourself not what you are told to think. The second bunch of stuf, who said UKIP wants to 'sever' ties with Europe? No one has said that. UKIP wants us to have destiny and self determination and not be beholden to an undemocratic and unwieldy beast.


This is one we could argue forever. The thread would vanish into a width of one letter. Truthfully, there is much in what you say that is quite persuasive. I don't like the fact that this country has crypto [and sometimes actual] slave labour conditions for many migrant workers with few resources devoted to curbing the practise. I also accept that at present we are a force in the world. However, we are dwarfed by the collective over the Channel who will not take kindly to creating a precedent of one big nation bolting. We have no idea how those negotiations will progress and that is the rub.

Given that, what I don't get is your vitriol. In terms of leaving the EC, UKIP are proposing a step into the unknown where both sides can only guess the outcome. I express fears that the transition will destabilize our economy when it is still in a state of fragile recovery. The best part of British business seems to agree. You make a brave case as to the likely future outcome and rubbish my points. However, as much as I can see your passion, there is no doubt that neither of us have any earthly idea what will actually happen should we secede from the EU.

One point - none of my views are informed by any of the major parties. Like most people I have no empirical data to make accurate predictions on the outcome of any policy choice because such data does not exist. That is, I made it up based on informed belief.

Also, the "R" word keeps popping up in this debate but it has no place in my views. Allowing controlled immigration on or near the current model may appear left wing because immigrants are by their nature foreign. However, it is actually very right wing given it is underpinned by free market flows of resources and competition. The problems it creates should be addressed by a sensible and humane policy on border control and repatriation; investing heavily in the skills of the indigenous population so they feed the needs of an advanced economy rather than compete with largely unskilled cheap immigrants for unskilled labour; and shifting resources to providing services to those immigrants funded by the taxes they pay. Pulling up the drawbridge is too simplistic and reactionary.

As I said, for a lefty I have pretty right wing opinions!

 

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Hoof Hearted 06 May 15 11.56am

Debate is over for me... I voted UKIP by post last week.

 

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 06 May 15 12.05pm Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 May 2015 11.56am

Debate is over for me... I voted UKIP by post last week.


I reckon Michael has as well.

All of his anti UKIP rhetoric is a cover for his true political feelings.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 06 May 15 12.39pm

[Link]

A letter to potential Tory voters.

 

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Part Time James Flag 06 May 15 12.57pm Send a Private Message to Part Time James Add Part Time James as a friend

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 May 2015 11.56am

Debate is over for me... I voted UKIP by post last week.

Same, but I voted in person tomorrow.

 




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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 06 May 15 1.01pm

Quote legaleagle at 05 May 2015 11.14pm

Quote Jimenez at 25 Apr 2015 8.34pm

Quote nickgusset at 25 Apr 2015 12.28am

[Link]

When Dave Nellist (TUSC leader) was a labour MP, he took a workers wage, which he will still do if elected - as will any other of their candidates. Don't see any other prospective mp's doing that.


Gesture politics of the worst kind, albeit well meaning. When NYC had Billionaire Michael Bloomberg as Mayor he paid himself a dollar a year It means nothing.

I agree completely re Bloomberg.It can mean somewhat more of a meaningful gesture when the politician is not well off in any meaning of the word (Nellist), as opposed to Bloomberg (estimated wealth billion).

Anyway, no one could accuse "man of the people" Nigel F of having made any kind of gesture,meaningless or otherwise.

[Link]


Edited by legaleagle (05 May 2015 11.21pm)

In an age of professional career politicians, its a gesture that means a lot. Far more than saying 'We're all in it together' etc.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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DanH Flag SW2 06 May 15 1.36pm Send a Private Message to DanH Add DanH as a friend

I've never voted Labour in my life, but one thing that has made me tempted to this time round is the sheer arrogance of the Tory campaign and the panic and vitriol of the right wing press.

If I see one more publication telling me to vote Tory I might just well put my X in the Labour box tomorrow for the first time in my life.

 

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npn Flag Crowborough 06 May 15 2.10pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

I may have missed this (I admit I've completely glazed over since my postal vote went off), but has anyone mentioned PR this campaign?

The big donwn-side the big boys always played was the fact that it would alwasy result in no overall majority (and that seems to be the case under FPTP now, so that doesn't hold water any more). They did that ridiculaous smoke and mirrors job by proposing that single transferable vote rubbish, so they could say we had a vote and rejected PR (which we clearly didn't - I'm all for PR, but there was no way I was signing up to the crap we were offered)

Seems to me that UKIP are currently flirting around 15% of the vote, the Greens 5%, yet between them they'll be lucky to muster 10 seats out of 650. I reckon the time is right to push PR through - then, at least, everyone's vote counts (even if you happen to live in a red / blue stronghold)

 

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Stuk Flag Top half 06 May 15 2.18pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Quote npn at 06 May 2015 2.10pm

I may have missed this (I admit I've completely glazed over since my postal vote went off), but has anyone mentioned PR this campaign?

The big donwn-side the big boys always played was the fact that it would alwasy result in no overall majority (and that seems to be the case under FPTP now, so that doesn't hold water any more). They did that ridiculaous smoke and mirrors job by proposing that single transferable vote rubbish, so they could say we had a vote and rejected PR (which we clearly didn't - I'm all for PR, but there was no way I was signing up to the crap we were offered)

Seems to me that UKIP are currently flirting around 15% of the vote, the Greens 5%, yet between them they'll be lucky to muster 10 seats out of 650. I reckon the time is right to push PR through - then, at least, everyone's vote counts (even if you happen to live in a red / blue stronghold)


That many? I'd be amazed if they get 5 between them.

Still don't agree with PR or AV. If it wasn't for the regionals there'd still only be 3 parties really. Maybe 2 depending on how many seats the Lib dems lose.

 


Optimistic as ever

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