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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 11.58am
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle Isn’t there already a 2-speed Europe considering only 9 countries are net contributors to its economy? No, but it is one of the precursors to it happening. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 11.58am

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Isn’t there already a 2-speed Europe considering only 9 countries are net contributors to its economy?

No, but it is one of the precursors to it happening.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Teddy Eagle 29 Aug 21 12.13pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle No, but it is one of the precursors to it happening. Why not? An organisation of 27 countries with 2/3 of it’s members constantly taking money out is different to one with 10 members who only take out money when necessary.
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Teddy Eagle

29 Aug 21 12.13pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

No, but it is one of the precursors to it happening.

Why not? An organisation of 27 countries with 2/3 of it’s members constantly taking money out is different to one with 10 members who only take out money when necessary.

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Badger11 Beckenham 29 Aug 21 12.28pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Why do you believe that our sovereignty was ever in doubt? There was never the slightest chance we would cede it to the EU! The EU cannot force it, whatever the fearmongers might suggest. We would never agree to it, so it was always a non issue. The most to be expected would be a voluntary agreement between some EU nations for a closer integration of their political systems, as part of a 2 speed Europe. Well the EU has been threatening Poland and Hungary because they don't like laws that are internal to those countries and passed by their parliaments. The EU has no business doing that I don't like those laws either but it is a threat to their sovereignty. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 29 Aug 21 12.28pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Why do you believe that our sovereignty was ever in doubt? There was never the slightest chance we would cede it to the EU! The EU cannot force it, whatever the fearmongers might suggest. We would never agree to it, so it was always a non issue. The most to be expected would be a voluntary agreement between some EU nations for a closer integration of their political systems, as part of a 2 speed Europe.

Well the EU has been threatening Poland and Hungary because they don't like laws that are internal to those countries and passed by their parliaments.

The EU has no business doing that I don't like those laws either but it is a threat to their sovereignty.

One more point

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davenotamonkey 29 Aug 21 1.57pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I don't think the electorate "allowed" anything to happen. They had no say in the matter. It just happened. It's not just me that thinks that either. Our own security forces do. I have the greatest respect for genuine democratic outcomes! However, the Brexit referendum was not one. In our representative democracy, such a huge decision ought to have never been exposed to the winds of chance inherent in a referendum. Especially when called by Cameron, and Central Office, in the political interests of the Tory Party and not the country. No referendum in the UK should ever be regarded as binding, but only advisory, because we delegate decisions to our representatives. Those representatives, as a collective body, were firmly of the view that we should remain a member. It was a shameful period in our long history, which future generations will come to view as the nemeses of the UK. We will not recover in my lifetime ...and yet in lawcase after lawcase, judgement after judgement, court after court, it has been shown that the referendum was indeed a genuine democratic outcome. The utter arrogance, that the likes of you seem to know better than the myriad judges that have rejected the lawfare eminating from anti-Brexit nutters that share your views. No. There is NO legal basis for your assertion. Those that have tried to argue for it have failed time and time and time again. Get. Over. It.
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davenotamonkey

29 Aug 21 1.57pm

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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't think the electorate "allowed" anything to happen. They had no say in the matter. It just happened. It's not just me that thinks that either. Our own security forces do.

I have the greatest respect for genuine democratic outcomes! However, the Brexit referendum was not one. In our representative democracy, such a huge decision ought to have never been exposed to the winds of chance inherent in a referendum. Especially when called by Cameron, and Central Office, in the political interests of the Tory Party and not the country. No referendum in the UK should ever be regarded as binding, but only advisory, because we delegate decisions to our representatives. Those representatives, as a collective body, were firmly of the view that we should remain a member.

It was a shameful period in our long history, which future generations will come to view as the nemeses of the UK. We will not recover in my lifetime

...and yet in lawcase after lawcase, judgement after judgement, court after court, it has been shown that the referendum was indeed a genuine democratic outcome.

The utter arrogance, that the likes of you seem to know better than the myriad judges that have rejected the lawfare eminating from anti-Brexit nutters that share your views.

No. There is NO legal basis for your assertion. Those that have tried to argue for it have failed time and time and time again.

Get. Over. It.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 2.19pm
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle Why not? An organisation of 27 countries with 2/3 of it’s members constantly taking money out is different to one with 10 members who only take out money when necessary. Because the same could be said of any situation in which taxes are collected and redistributed. So every country would be included. The EU operates under the same basic rules everywhere. If it became a 2 speed organisation that would no longer be the case. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 2.19pm

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Why not? An organisation of 27 countries with 2/3 of it’s members constantly taking money out is different to one with 10 members who only take out money when necessary.

Because the same could be said of any situation in which taxes are collected and redistributed. So every country would be included.

The EU operates under the same basic rules everywhere. If it became a 2 speed organisation that would no longer be the case.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 2.34pm
Originally posted by davenotamonkey ...and yet in lawcase after lawcase, judgement after judgement, court after court, it has been shown that the referendum was indeed a genuine democratic outcome. The utter arrogance, that the likes of you seem to know better than the myriad judges that have rejected the lawfare eminating from anti-Brexit nutters that share your views. No. There is NO legal basis for your assertion. Those that have tried to argue for it have failed time and time and time again. Get. Over. It. You are completely wrong. It just hasn't. Not in one, because it was never in doubt. It was always the case that only Parliament could enact a Brexit, because that's the way our democracy works. That Cameron made a promise to respect the result was a gross error, which misled a lot of Brexiteers, but the plain fact is that he could not make such a promise because he could not speak for Parliament, which is sovereign. No case I am aware of challenged its legitimacy and was lost. Or won. The legitimacy all came through Parliament passing the Withdrawal Agreement Act. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 2.34pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

...and yet in lawcase after lawcase, judgement after judgement, court after court, it has been shown that the referendum was indeed a genuine democratic outcome.

The utter arrogance, that the likes of you seem to know better than the myriad judges that have rejected the lawfare eminating from anti-Brexit nutters that share your views.

No. There is NO legal basis for your assertion. Those that have tried to argue for it have failed time and time and time again.

Get. Over. It.

You are completely wrong. It just hasn't. Not in one, because it was never in doubt. It was always the case that only Parliament could enact a Brexit, because that's the way our democracy works. That Cameron made a promise to respect the result was a gross error, which misled a lot of Brexiteers, but the plain fact is that he could not make such a promise because he could not speak for Parliament, which is sovereign.

No case I am aware of challenged its legitimacy and was lost. Or won.

The legitimacy all came through Parliament passing the Withdrawal Agreement Act.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 2.39pm
Originally posted by Badger11 Well the EU has been threatening Poland and Hungary because they don't like laws that are internal to those countries and passed by their parliaments. The EU has no business doing that I don't like those laws either but it is a threat to their sovereignty. If those laws break existing EU law, that both Poland and Hungary have agreed to abide by, then that isn't true. If you want an opt-out, it must be negotiated. Once you join an organisation then you are bound by its rules. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 21 2.39pm

Originally posted by Badger11

Well the EU has been threatening Poland and Hungary because they don't like laws that are internal to those countries and passed by their parliaments.

The EU has no business doing that I don't like those laws either but it is a threat to their sovereignty.

If those laws break existing EU law, that both Poland and Hungary have agreed to abide by, then that isn't true. If you want an opt-out, it must be negotiated.

Once you join an organisation then you are bound by its rules.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Hrolf The Ganger 29 Aug 21 2.40pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle That made me smile. You and your kind are so rooted in the past that you probably think dinosaurs roam on Clapham Common. The world has changed around you, and moaning about it won't achieve anything. We have to deal with what is, and not what was. We are too small to succeed alone as we no longer have the leverage, power or natural resources. It takes guts to admit that and then do what is best, not for yourself but for the younger and future generations. You are right. The world is changing, and rapidly heading for disaster. I did have the guts to vote for Brexit and allow our island nation the opportunity to make decisions that protect itself and not just service the needs of Germany and France. Natural resources are a global problem. Our membership of the EU would not help our ability to access them. In fact, our ability to trade in global markets may be an advantage. The only things that will matter in the future are, how we stop an endless stream of people arriving here, when the global population stops growing, when we are able to have renewable energy for all and how we feed and water everyone. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Aug 2021 2.19pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

29 Aug 21 2.40pm

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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That made me smile. You and your kind are so rooted in the past that you probably think dinosaurs roam on Clapham Common.

The world has changed around you, and moaning about it won't achieve anything. We have to deal with what is, and not what was. We are too small to succeed alone as we no longer have the leverage, power or natural resources.

It takes guts to admit that and then do what is best, not for yourself but for the younger and future generations.

You are right. The world is changing, and rapidly heading for disaster. I did have the guts to vote for Brexit and allow our island nation the opportunity to make decisions that protect itself and not just service the needs of Germany and France.
Natural resources are a global problem. Our membership of the EU would not help our ability to access them. In fact, our ability to trade in global markets may be an advantage.
The only things that will matter in the future are, how we stop an endless stream of people arriving here, when the global population stops growing, when we are able to have renewable energy for all and how we feed and water everyone.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Aug 2021 2.19pm)

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Teddy Eagle 29 Aug 21 4.34pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Because the same could be said of any situation in which taxes are collected and redistributed. So every country would be included. The EU operates under the same basic rules everywhere. If it became a 2 speed organisation that would no longer be the case. So the same countries would still be paying for the others.
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Teddy Eagle

29 Aug 21 4.34pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Because the same could be said of any situation in which taxes are collected and redistributed. So every country would be included.

The EU operates under the same basic rules everywhere. If it became a 2 speed organisation that would no longer be the case.

So the same countries would still be paying for the others.

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cryrst The garden of England 29 Aug 21 4.36pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Where you see insults, I just see the truth. That they might be uncomfortable truths is just unfortunate. They don't have to be gullible, and I am sure some of those who voted to Remain could be too. The difference was the type of campaign which each side fought. When you are making promises of a theoretical better tomorrow, the gullible are likely to believe it. If your campaign has to defend the well known, then the facts are already known and gullibility is much less of a factor. So remainers could be gullible too. Interesting. As for the type of campaign, according to many remainers the UK would be on its ass by now. Doesn't appear to be at all. Economy nearly back to pre covid, low unemployment, tons of job vacancies. Not exactly dump the lump time is it ?
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cryrst

The garden of England 29 Aug 21 4.36pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Where you see insults, I just see the truth. That they might be uncomfortable truths is just unfortunate.

They don't have to be gullible, and I am sure some of those who voted to Remain could be too. The difference was the type of campaign which each side fought. When you are making promises of a theoretical better tomorrow, the gullible are likely to believe it. If your campaign has to defend the well known, then the facts are already known and gullibility is much less of a factor.

So remainers could be gullible too. Interesting. As for the type of campaign, according to many remainers the UK would be on its ass by now. Doesn't appear to be at all. Economy nearly back to pre covid, low unemployment, tons of job vacancies.
Not exactly dump the lump time is it ?

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Stirlingsays 29 Aug 21 4.58pm
Brexit is in the past and there is no going back.....not in the lifetime of current boomers certainly. In fairness, pro EU supporters deserve to be treated precisely the same as their leaders treated anti EU supporters and not be allowed a vote for forty years. See how they like it. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

29 Aug 21 4.58pm

Brexit is in the past and there is no going back.....not in the lifetime of current boomers certainly.

In fairness, pro EU supporters deserve to be treated precisely the same as their leaders treated anti EU supporters and not be allowed a vote for forty years.

See how they like it.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 29 Aug 21 6.18pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle If those laws break existing EU law, that both Poland and Hungary have agreed to abide by, then that isn't true. If you want an opt-out, it must be negotiated. Once you join an organisation then you are bound by its rules. Doesn't matter , it is still an infringement on national sovereignty which is why I voted to leave. Until the EU gives up insisting on interfering I will not change my opinion on Brexit. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 29 Aug 21 6.18pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If those laws break existing EU law, that both Poland and Hungary have agreed to abide by, then that isn't true. If you want an opt-out, it must be negotiated.

Once you join an organisation then you are bound by its rules.

Doesn't matter , it is still an infringement on national sovereignty which is why I voted to leave. Until the EU gives up insisting on interfering I will not change my opinion on Brexit.

One more point

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