National Anthems

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

National Anthems

Page 34 of 46 < 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 >

jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Sep 17 1.37pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Mmmm....in a culture with so many guns in it....this is going to happen. It's the nature of the beast and the Police actions are a delivery point....not the cause of why it happens. It's completely unrealistic to expect people who feel threatened for their lives to get out pepper stray or stun guns when in some situations they just don't stop people.....Too many guns in the culture. Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.12pm) In some situations yes, that's reasonable. But the problem here isn't that 'some situations', its in situations where the threat is low (or over, and in some non-existent) and the response is lethal force. However, if your response to feeling in danger is to just shoot someone, in no way should you be a police officer. We wouldn't expect the police in the UK, when reacting to a call, to just steam straight in and start battering people who might be a threat with a truncheon - unless its all kicked off (and even then if you watch footage of how British police deal with armed suspects, you'll see that they tend to control the situation, and de-escalate it, rather than shoot someone). Sure the UK sees much less gun crime. But the UK firearms SO18 teams rarely have ever shot an unarmed person, and even then they've tended to be people that it was very reasonable to believe they possessed a firearm. F**k me, unarmed police officers in the UK are still the first usually on the scene when there is reports of a gun or shots fired, and still the number of police officers shot or killed in the line of duty is remarkably low. In no society should it be acceptable for police officers to be shooting unarmed people, without independent adjudication of their actions. Especially true when affecting or responding to very low level threat incidents. Cops who's instinct is to shoot first and then worry about it, shouldn't be working as police officers. The police has to be a highly trained, professional. Its not really about black or white, or culture - its about the standards and quality of the policing. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 29 Sep 17 1.37pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Mmmm....in a culture with so many guns in it....this is going to happen. It's the nature of the beast and the Police actions are a delivery point....not the cause of why it happens.

It's completely unrealistic to expect people who feel threatened for their lives to get out pepper stray or stun guns when in some situations they just don't stop people.....Too many guns in the culture.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.12pm)

In some situations yes, that's reasonable. But the problem here isn't that 'some situations', its in situations where the threat is low (or over, and in some non-existent) and the response is lethal force.

However, if your response to feeling in danger is to just shoot someone, in no way should you be a police officer. We wouldn't expect the police in the UK, when reacting to a call, to just steam straight in and start battering people who might be a threat with a truncheon - unless its all kicked off (and even then if you watch footage of how British police deal with armed suspects, you'll see that they tend to control the situation, and de-escalate it, rather than shoot someone).

Sure the UK sees much less gun crime. But the UK firearms SO18 teams rarely have ever shot an unarmed person, and even then they've tended to be people that it was very reasonable to believe they possessed a firearm.

F**k me, unarmed police officers in the UK are still the first usually on the scene when there is reports of a gun or shots fired, and still the number of police officers shot or killed in the line of duty is remarkably low.

In no society should it be acceptable for police officers to be shooting unarmed people, without independent adjudication of their actions.

Especially true when affecting or responding to very low level threat incidents.

Cops who's instinct is to shoot first and then worry about it, shouldn't be working as police officers. The police has to be a highly trained, professional.

Its not really about black or white, or culture - its about the standards and quality of the policing.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Sep 17 1.40pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays The problem is that obviously BLM are not impartial themselves....as the name implies. There is an issue when you look deep into it. But, the conclusions of groups like BLM and progressivism are just unhelpful to actually changing anything...it's the nutter shouting in the crowd....it's like saying Hamas are the answer to the Israeli/Palestinian problem. Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.20pm) The sort of antagonism they project just alienates those who might be sympathetic. I don't say that people should not protest about perceived injustice but that it must be seen in the context of police officers putting their lives on the line in an environment where a white policeman is 'the enemy' and at serious risk. No one wants to talk about all the white police officers killed by black criminals because it doesn't fit the narrative of social injustice.
Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Sep 17 1.40pm

Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The problem is that obviously BLM are not impartial themselves....as the name implies.

There is an issue when you look deep into it. But, the conclusions of groups like BLM and progressivism are just unhelpful to actually changing anything...it's the nutter shouting in the crowd....it's like saying Hamas are the answer to the Israeli/Palestinian problem.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.20pm)

The sort of antagonism they project just alienates those who might be sympathetic.
I don't say that people should not protest about perceived injustice but that it must be seen in the context of police officers putting their lives on the line in an environment where a white policeman is 'the enemy' and at serious risk.
No one wants to talk about all the white police officers killed by black criminals because it doesn't fit the narrative of social injustice.

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Sep 17 1.43pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger We should be concerned about all of the above but, as I said, it is a question of proportion. I keep hearing about police murderers from the likes of BLM and the liberal Left but not a whisper about the other stuff. That leads one to wonder how much of it is genuine concern and how much is political theatre. The system will never be perfect or consist of perfect individuals but we need to protect it for the greater good. I think you know that. The greater good, being what? Its not most people think that every police shooting is unjustified or indefensible, they just want the ones that are properly handled. Because the greater good, isn't going to be achievable when people respond to the police as being a threat to their lives, rather than the people who are supposed to protect them. As for 'other issues'. Really, because the issue of gangs and urban failure in the US seems pretty prevalent to me: its not like the war on drugs isn't covered, or the problems of addiction, gangs and poverty in failed towns and cities isn't well documented and known. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 29 Sep 17 1.43pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

We should be concerned about all of the above but, as I said, it is a question of proportion.
I keep hearing about police murderers from the likes of BLM and the liberal Left but not a whisper about the other stuff. That leads one to wonder how much of it is genuine concern and how much is political theatre.

The system will never be perfect or consist of perfect individuals but we need to protect it for the greater good. I think you know that.

The greater good, being what? Its not most people think that every police shooting is unjustified or indefensible, they just want the ones that are properly handled.

Because the greater good, isn't going to be achievable when people respond to the police as being a threat to their lives, rather than the people who are supposed to protect them.

As for 'other issues'. Really, because the issue of gangs and urban failure in the US seems pretty prevalent to me: its not like the war on drugs isn't covered, or the problems of addiction, gangs and poverty in failed towns and cities isn't well documented and known.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays 29 Sep 17 1.51pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger The sort of antagonism they project just alienates those who might be sympathetic. I don't say that people should not protest about perceived injustice but that it must be seen in the context of police officers putting their lives on the line in an environment where a white policeman is 'the enemy' and at serious risk. No one wants to talk about all the white police officers killed by black criminals because it doesn't fit the narrative of social injustice. When you have so many guns in the culture this trigger happy reality is going to be there. Black criminals will shoot at Police, who are two thirds white and vice versa. Those with agendas will shout about it. Those speaking rationally about what could be done better will be drowned out....no one wants to listen to moderation when they can watch people beating their chests or virtue signalling instead. If we had a situation where the vast majority of people going around with guns were only the armed response section of the Police then we could have realities like we have here....not perfect but a hell of a lot better. But they have the second amendment and it isn't going to change. Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.52pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays

29 Sep 17 1.51pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

When you have so many guns in the culture this trigger happy reality is going to be there.

Black criminals will shoot at Police, who are two thirds white and vice versa. Those with agendas will shout about it. Those speaking rationally about what could be done better will be drowned out....no one wants to listen to moderation when they can watch people beating their chests or virtue signalling instead.

If we had a situation where the vast majority of people going around with guns were only the armed response section of the Police then we could have realities like we have here....not perfect but a hell of a lot better.

But they have the second amendment and it isn't going to change.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.52pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Sep 17 1.54pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 The greater good, being what? Its not most people think that every police shooting is unjustified or indefensible, they just want the ones that are properly handled. Because the greater good, isn't going to be achievable when people respond to the police as being a threat to their lives, rather than the people who are supposed to protect them. As for 'other issues'. Really, because the issue of gangs and urban failure in the US seems pretty prevalent to me: its not like the war on drugs isn't covered, or the problems of addiction, gangs and poverty in failed towns and cities isn't well documented and known. I think we agree that state police have to be subject to proper discipline for criminal behaviour but with the understanding of the limits of the human condition when faced with threat. All the training in the world won't prepare you for a real situation, especially if you are a rookie. There has to be balance and the recognition that the police has to function without having it's hands tied. Effective policing and recruitment depends on that. The rotten apples have to be removed without killing the tree because a lot of police effectivenes relies on morale. THat is the greater good and one that effects the vast majority. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Sep 2017 1.54pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Sep 17 1.54pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

The greater good, being what? Its not most people think that every police shooting is unjustified or indefensible, they just want the ones that are properly handled.

Because the greater good, isn't going to be achievable when people respond to the police as being a threat to their lives, rather than the people who are supposed to protect them.

I think we agree that state police have to be subject to proper discipline for criminal behaviour but with the understanding of the limits of the human condition when faced with threat. All the training in the world won't prepare you for a real situation, especially if you are a rookie.
There has to be balance and the recognition that the police has to function without having it's hands tied. Effective policing and recruitment depends on that.

The rotten apples have to be removed without killing the tree because a lot of police effectivenes relies on morale. THat is the greater good and one that effects the vast majority.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Sep 2017 1.54pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Sep 17 1.57pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger The sort of antagonism they project just alienates those who might be sympathetic. I don't say that people should not protest about perceived injustice but that it must be seen in the context of police officers putting their lives on the line in an environment where a white policeman is 'the enemy' and at serious risk. No one wants to talk about all the white police officers killed by black criminals because it doesn't fit the narrative of social injustice. Across the US in 2015, 134 police officers died in the line of duty, of which 64 were shot and killed (53 died in road traffic accidents). There are around 900,000 police officers in the US. This was a ten year high, because it involved the Baton Rouge and Dallas shooting / ambushes, including those ambushes, a total of 21 police officers were killed in premeditated incidents (up from 8 the previous year due to the Dallas and Baton Rouge 'revenge attacks') At least two were shot and killed by other police officers in accidents. I couldn't find any details on Officers shot and killed by black males. However in the previous year, of the 41 officers killed in criminal actions, 29 were white. But realistically, police deaths from criminal actions are remarkably low, given in most years they're more at risk from driving a car. Which doesn't really justify a basis of 'shoot on sense of threat' "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 29 Sep 17 1.57pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Across the US in 2015, 134 police officers died in the line of duty, of which 64 were shot and killed (53 died in road traffic accidents). There are around 900,000 police officers in the US. This was a ten year high, because it involved the Baton Rouge and Dallas shooting / ambushes, including those ambushes, a total of 21 police officers were killed in premeditated incidents (up from 8 the previous year due to the Dallas and Baton Rouge 'revenge attacks')

At least two were shot and killed by other police officers in accidents.

I couldn't find any details on Officers shot and killed by black males. However in the previous year, of the 41 officers killed in criminal actions, 29 were white.

But realistically, police deaths from criminal actions are remarkably low, given in most years they're more at risk from driving a car.

Which doesn't really justify a basis of 'shoot on sense of threat'

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Sep 17 2.02pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I think we agree that state police have to be subject to proper discipline for criminal behaviour but with the understanding of the limits of the human condition when faced with threat. All the training in the world won't prepare you for a real situation, especially if you are a rookie. There has to be balance and the recognition that the police has to function without having it's hands tied. Effective policing and recruitment depends on that. The rotten apples have to be removed without killing the tree because a lot of police effectivenes relies on morale. THat is the greater good and one that effects the vast majority. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Sep 2017 1.54pm) The problem with metaphors about rot, is that if you don't, it spreads to everything. Morale of police officers shouldn't be lowered by holding police officers accountable for criminal actions or properly investigating them. Take body cameras, the police officers in generally are very pro camera, its the officers and authority that aren't. How good is morale, when everyone hates you, and first thought is that your going to kill them. 'The good of morale' doesn't justify turning a blind eye of negligence or criminality - its just continuing to allow a problem to get worse, to the point that we now experience. Arguably 21 police officers were murdered in 2016 because of the failures of police accountability and oversight that sprung up in the cases that sparked the BLM protests. How's that for morale. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 29 Sep 17 2.02pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The rotten apples have to be removed without killing the tree because a lot of police effectivenes relies on morale. THat is the greater good and one that effects the vast majority.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Sep 2017 1.54pm)

The problem with metaphors about rot, is that if you don't, it spreads to everything. Morale of police officers shouldn't be lowered by holding police officers accountable for criminal actions or properly investigating them.

Take body cameras, the police officers in generally are very pro camera, its the officers and authority that aren't.

How good is morale, when everyone hates you, and first thought is that your going to kill them.

'The good of morale' doesn't justify turning a blind eye of negligence or criminality - its just continuing to allow a problem to get worse, to the point that we now experience.

Arguably 21 police officers were murdered in 2016 because of the failures of police accountability and oversight that sprung up in the cases that sparked the BLM protests. How's that for morale.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 29 Sep 17 2.13pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays When you have so many guns in the culture this trigger happy reality is going to be there. Black criminals will shoot at Police, who are two thirds white and vice versa. Those with agendas will shout about it. Those speaking rationally about what could be done better will be drowned out....no one wants to listen to moderation when they can watch people beating their chests or virtue signalling instead. If we had a situation where the vast majority of people going around with guns were only the armed response section of the Police then we could have realities like we have here....not perfect but a hell of a lot better. But they have the second amendment and it isn't going to change. Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.52pm) How common is that though, or how much of that stems from media fiction? Bearing in mind that usually when the police turn up, criminals tend to flee, ditch weapons or escape. There were, in 2015, 8 police officers in the US, killed in deliberate police ambushes. 29 White police officers in total were shot and killed in 2015. Either all these black men shooting at police are terrible shots, or they're not all that prevalent. Of note in 2016 British police fired 7 shots, in total, including Northern Ireland. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721

Reading 29 Sep 17 2.13pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

When you have so many guns in the culture this trigger happy reality is going to be there.

Black criminals will shoot at Police, who are two thirds white and vice versa. Those with agendas will shout about it. Those speaking rationally about what could be done better will be drowned out....no one wants to listen to moderation when they can watch people beating their chests or virtue signalling instead.

But they have the second amendment and it isn't going to change.

Edited by Stirlingsays (29 Sep 2017 1.52pm)

How common is that though, or how much of that stems from media fiction? Bearing in mind that usually when the police turn up, criminals tend to flee, ditch weapons or escape.

There were, in 2015, 8 police officers in the US, killed in deliberate police ambushes.

29 White police officers in total were shot and killed in 2015. Either all these black men shooting at police are terrible shots, or they're not all that prevalent.

Of note in 2016 British police fired 7 shots, in total, including Northern Ireland.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Sep 17 3.14pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Across the US in 2015, 134 police officers died in the line of duty, of which 64 were shot and killed (53 died in road traffic accidents). There are around 900,000 police officers in the US. This was a ten year high, because it involved the Baton Rouge and Dallas shooting / ambushes, including those ambushes, a total of 21 police officers were killed in premeditated incidents (up from 8 the previous year due to the Dallas and Baton Rouge 'revenge attacks') At least two were shot and killed by other police officers in accidents. I couldn't find any details on Officers shot and killed by black males. However in the previous year, of the 41 officers killed in criminal actions, 29 were white. But realistically, police deaths from criminal actions are remarkably low, given in most years they're more at risk from driving a car. Which doesn't really justify a basis of 'shoot on sense of threat' Had it occured to you that their tactics when dealing with suspects has keep the number of police deaths down? As you are so fond of reminding me, that the thing about stats. THe don't always tell the whole story.
Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Sep 17 3.14pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

At least two were shot and killed by other police officers in accidents.

I couldn't find any details on Officers shot and killed by black males. However in the previous year, of the 41 officers killed in criminal actions, 29 were white.

But realistically, police deaths from criminal actions are remarkably low, given in most years they're more at risk from driving a car.

Which doesn't really justify a basis of 'shoot on sense of threat'

Had it occured to you that their tactics when dealing with suspects has keep the number of police deaths down?
As you are so fond of reminding me, that the thing about stats. THe don't always tell the whole story.

Alert a moderator to this post

wordup 29 Sep 17 3.17pm
Peaceful protest is of course outrageous and national news. With that in mind it's predictable that now even being 'very critical' of the current administration on facebook or being one of thousands to simply visit a protest page sets the department of justice after your personal details. [Link] Edited by wordup (29 Sep 2017 3.32pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

wordup

29 Sep 17 3.17pm

Peaceful protest is of course outrageous and national news. With that in mind it's predictable that now even being 'very critical' of the current administration on facebook or being one of thousands to simply visit a protest page sets the department of justice after your personal details.

[Link]

Edited by wordup (29 Sep 2017 3.32pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Sep 17 3.27pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 The problem with metaphors about rot, is that if you don't, it spreads to everything. Morale of police officers shouldn't be lowered by holding police officers accountable for criminal actions or properly investigating them. Take body cameras, the police officers in generally are very pro camera, its the officers and authority that aren't. How good is morale, when everyone hates you, and first thought is that your going to kill them. 'The good of morale' doesn't justify turning a blind eye of negligence or criminality - its just continuing to allow a problem to get worse, to the point that we now experience. Arguably 21 police officers were murdered in 2016 because of the failures of police accountability and oversight that sprung up in the cases that sparked the BLM protests. How's that for morale. They were killed by murdering b******s with no justification whatsoever. They were random police doing a job. There is an us and them culture among some officers dealing with hardened criminals I'm sure and this is probably recognised by the top brass. When an officer is killed, there is a sense of group loss ands I'm sure there is a mentality among some who have seen a lot of action that they would rather a suspect was shot than one of them no matter what . It ain't right but it is understandable. Given that, morale could be damaged if influencial officers feel that they can't protect themselves. Clearly some take that shoot first mentality too far but in the majority of cases I'm sure they act within the rules as can be applied practically.
Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Sep 17 3.27pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Take body cameras, the police officers in generally are very pro camera, its the officers and authority that aren't.

How good is morale, when everyone hates you, and first thought is that your going to kill them.

'The good of morale' doesn't justify turning a blind eye of negligence or criminality - its just continuing to allow a problem to get worse, to the point that we now experience.

Arguably 21 police officers were murdered in 2016 because of the failures of police accountability and oversight that sprung up in the cases that sparked the BLM protests. How's that for morale.

They were killed by murdering b******s with no justification whatsoever. They were random police doing a job.

There is an us and them culture among some officers dealing with hardened criminals I'm sure and this is probably recognised by the top brass. When an officer is killed, there is a sense of group loss ands I'm sure there is a mentality among some who have seen a lot of action that they would rather a suspect was shot than one of them no matter what . It ain't right but it is understandable.

Given that, morale could be damaged if influencial officers feel that they can't protect themselves. Clearly some take that shoot first mentality too far but in the majority of cases I'm sure they act within the rules as can be applied practically.

Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger 29 Sep 17 3.31pm
Originally posted by wordup Peaceful protest is of course outrageous and national news. With that in mind it's predictable that now even being 'very critical' of the current administration on facebook or being one of thousands to visit just a protest page gets the department of justice demanding your personal details. [Link] It ain't the protest, it is who is doing it and when. There is nothing new about sportsmen protesting but, aside all else, you have to ask yourself if it helped anything or just served as a bigger wedge between minority and majority. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Sep 2017 3.32pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger

29 Sep 17 3.31pm

Originally posted by wordup

Peaceful protest is of course outrageous and national news. With that in mind it's predictable that now even being 'very critical' of the current administration on facebook or being one of thousands to visit just a protest page gets the department of justice demanding your personal details.

[Link]

It ain't the protest, it is who is doing it and when.
There is nothing new about sportsmen protesting but, aside all else, you have to ask yourself if it helped anything or just served as a bigger wedge between minority and majority.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Sep 2017 3.32pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

Page 34 of 46 < 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website - The Holmesdale Online

National Anthems

Site Map

New users

Existing users

Sponsors