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The left and Jewish people
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 Kermit8  Hevon 29 Sep 16 8.27am |
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"Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism. Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews. Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds. Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a “problem” of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn’s longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally." Jewish Socialist Group Interestingly, Israel originally was founded as a socialist state as well as Jewish.
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legaleagle  29 Sep 16 9.14am |
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Can't disagree with that. Looks like they are ideological successors of the Bund which was the main Jewish political grouping other than the zionists in pre-war c and E Europe. But would be nice and reassuring to hear JS actually come out in terms and say: 1.He abhors the nonsense spouted in some margins of the party about Jews being the prime movers behind the slave trade 2.That he abhors Hamas for having a charter that blames Jews per se for,amongst other things,the French revolution and both world wars.And as such,regrets having shared a platform with such people. Surely not to much to ask of a person with a "longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism..." ? Edited by legaleagle (29 Sep 2016 9.15am)
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| banbandanas Birmingham 29 Sep 16 9.28am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
Can't disagree with that. Looks like they are ideological successors of the Bund which was the main Jewish political grouping other than the zionists in pre-war c and E Europe. But would be nice and reassuring to hear JS actually come out in terms and say: 1.He abhors the nonsense spouted in some margins of the party about Jews being the prime movers behind the slave trade 2.That he abhors Hamas for having a charter that blames Jews per se for,amongst other things,the French revolution and both world wars.And as such,regrets having shared a platform with such people. Surely not to much to ask of a person with a "longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism..." ? Edited by legaleagle (29 Sep 2016 9.15am) Not much chance of that, as yesterday he said he was right to apologise on behalf of the party for being involved in the overthrow of a fascist dictator.
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| matt_himself Matataland 29 Sep 16 9.40am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
"Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism. Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews. Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds. Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a “problem” of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn’s longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally." Jewish Socialist Group Interestingly, Israel originally was founded as a socialist state as well as Jewish. Bertie, more smokescreen. We know the difference between anti semitism and criticising the Israeli government. However there is a problem with the left with Jewish people. It's almost an obsession. If this had been self recognised and dealt with, hammering down people equating the 'slave trade with Jewish bankers' for example, would have killed the issue. But as we know Bertie, the left ain't gonna do that.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| johnfirewall 29 Sep 16 12.42pm |
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Amazed by people like Jackie Walker known for "questioning the need for security outside Jewish schools, criticising Holocaust Memorial Day and saying that she had not heard a definition of antisemitism that she could “work with”.
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| Stirlingsays 29 Sep 16 8.35pm |
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Zionism means Jewish nationalism. While the left love to make nationalism a dirty word, outside of their circles, most people don't regard it as such. What determines a good or bad aspect is the behaviour of the nation state itself. In these terms I believe the Israeli government is richly deserving of criticism. However if a Jew wishes to be proud of their country and hence is a zionist then I see nothing wrong with that. If they support the piecemeal stripping of Palestinian land....well I do see something very wrong with that.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 29 Sep 16 8.38pm |
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Originally posted by johnfirewall
Amazed by people like Jackie Walker known for "questioning the need for security outside Jewish schools, criticising Holocaust Memorial Day and saying that she had not heard a definition of antisemitism that she could “work with”. Not exactly surprising is it that a woman like that can get to a prominent position within Labour's rearguard. The far left is full of various levels of antisemitism.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| The White Horse 29 Sep 16 9.23pm |
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Ultimately for the far left things invariably come down to class war. Chuka Umunna says something about racism; it doesn't matter as he's a middle class Blairite. Jewish people (particularly in Israel) complain about anti-Semitism; it doesn't matter as your average Muslim in the UK and in Palestine is probably "worse off" than their Jewish neighbours. It's such as shame that even the Tories, with their proud history of helping promote racism over the last century, can call out anti-Semitism in all of its forms without insisting on a debate of what the definition ought to be.
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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| Stirlingsays 29 Sep 16 9.32pm |
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Originally posted by The White Horse
Ultimately for the far left things invariably come down to class war. Chuka Umunna says something about racism; it doesn't matter as he's a middle class Blairite. Jewish people (particularly in Israel) complain about anti-Semitism; it doesn't matter as your average Muslim in the UK and in Palestine is probably "worse off" than their Jewish neighbours. It's such as shame that even the Tories, with their proud history of helping promote racism over the last century, can call out anti-Semitism in all of its forms without insisting on a debate of what the definition ought to be. Funny you make that point as Muslims have the highest rates of anti-semitic views in the country. A Times survey in 2006 found that nearly two fifths (37 per cent) [of Muslims] believe that the Jewish community in Britain is a legitimate target “as part of the ongoing struggle for justice in the Middle East”. Moreover, only 52 per cent think that the state of Israel has the right to exist, with 30 per cent disagreeing, a big minority. One in six of all Muslims questioned thinks suicide bombings can sometimes be justified in Israel, though many fewer (7 per cent) say the same about Britain. The Islamic population in Britain has risen 1.65 million to 2.87 million since 2001......I wonder if this is connected to the rapid leaving of British Jews from this country....In many cases Jews whose families have lived here for centuries. Never mind, the left just window dress the issue.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| matt_himself Matataland 29 Sep 16 9.34pm |
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Originally posted by The White Horse
Ultimately for the far left things invariably come down to class war. Chuka Umunna says something about racism; it doesn't matter as he's a middle class Blairite. Jewish people (particularly in Israel) complain about anti-Semitism; it doesn't matter as your average Muslim in the UK and in Palestine is probably "worse off" than their Jewish neighbours. It's such as shame that even the Tories, with their proud history of helping promote racism over the last century, can call out anti-Semitism in all of its forms without insisting on a debate of what the definition ought to be. Total bollocks. Chuka is not a 'Blairite'. That is a word, invented by your sort, to demean those in opposition to you in the Labour Party. Lazy. Incorrect. Pathetic. The other fact is that the Conservatives welcome Jewish people to the party, where there is a proud tradition of Jewish membership and service in the party, whereas it appears 'not the done thing' for a Jewish person to be part of Labour at the moment. This is Labour/the left/the Maoists problem and the not the right thinking majority's issue.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| matt_himself Matataland 29 Sep 16 9.36pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Funny you make that point as Muslims have the highest rates of anti-semitic views in the country. A Times survey in 2006 found that nearly two fifths (37 per cent) [of Muslims] believe that the Jewish community in Britain is a legitimate target “as part of the ongoing struggle for justice in the Middle East”. Moreover, only 52 per cent think that the state of Israel has the right to exist, with 30 per cent disagreeing, a big minority. One in six of all Muslims questioned thinks suicide bombings can sometimes be justified in Israel, though many fewer (7 per cent) say the same about Britain. The Islamic population in Britain has risen 1.65 million to 2.87 million since 2001......I wonder if this is connected to the rapid leaving of British Jews from this country....In many cases Jews whose families have lived here for centuries. Never mind, the left just window dress the issue. He, like e rest of the Maoists, have a problem w this issue. Let them bury themselves in it whilst Theresa May I leases her right wing agenda, which is much needed, on the country. f*** the Maoists. They simply don't get what is going on right now.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| legaleagle 29 Sep 16 9.50pm |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Total bollocks. Chuka is not a 'Blairite'. That is a word, invented by your sort, to demean those in opposition to you in the Labour Party. Lazy. Incorrect. Pathetic. The other fact is that the Conservatives welcome Jewish people to the party, where there is a proud tradition of Jewish membership and service in the party, whereas it appears 'not the done thing' for a Jewish person to be part of Labour at the moment. This is Labour/the left/the Maoists problem and the not the right thinking majority's issue. no,people with dodgy views/actions are alive and well unfortunately in the crevices of the Tories too and UKIP. It needs to be confronted wherever rather than used just to tar political foes. Remember this clown? or this one? A YouGov survey last year found the highest proponderance amongst Lib Dem voters...
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