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Pussay Patrol Flag 05 May 15 2.43pm

Quote Willo at 05 May 2015 8.18am

Quote Anerley-Fried-Eagle at 05 May 2015 4.24am

Which would obviously explain the rise in zero hour contracts and use of food banks.

So compassionate the tories.

Typical Labour guff about the so called "Epidemic" of "Zero Hours" contracts.

According to the "Office for National Statistics" between Oct and December last year a total of some 700,000 said they were employed on zero-hours contracts in their main job. This represents only 2.3% of people in employment, hardly an epidemic ! Furthermore 80% of the jobs created are full-time and there are nearly 31 Mill in work which is a record.Besides there are many who choose to work on a 'Casual' basis as it suits them to do so and I know quite a few in this category.


Edited by Willo (05 May 2015 8.35am)

Labour would be more compassionate and put them on benefits

That was New Labour's answer to unemployment, put them on the state payroll, either in a non job or benefits

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 05 May 15 3.01pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Quote Willo at 05 May 2015 8.18am

Quote Anerley-Fried-Eagle at 05 May 2015 4.24am

Which would obviously explain the rise in zero hour contracts and use of food banks.

So compassionate the tories.

Typical Labour guff about the so called "Epidemic" of "Zero Hours" contracts.

According to the "Office for National Statistics" between Oct and December last year a total of some 700,000 said they were employed on zero-hours contracts in their main job. This represents only 2.3% of people in employment, hardly an epidemic ! Furthermore 80% of the jobs created are full-time and there are nearly 31 Mill in work which is a record.Besides there are many who choose to work on a 'Casual' basis as it suits them to do so and I know quite a few in this category.


Edited by Willo (05 May 2015 8.35am)

I find this laughably hypocritical. Tories and right wingers love having a go at benefit scroungers, using them as a reason to slash benefits, yet less than 1% of those claiming welfare are 'scroungers'. Yet this proportion, significant enough for them to create keystone policy around, is seen as 'insignificant' when people talk about zero-hours contracts. Why? Maybe, just maybe, it's because that type of hypocrisy allows them to ignore the issues of the poorest in our society. Just a thought.

Also, considering these type of contracts are pretty new, I would actually say 3% is actually a pretty alarming figure, and of course it is representative of the increased insecurity of most jobs in this country.

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 05 May 15 3.45pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Quote serial thriller at 05 May 2015 3.01pm


I find this laughably hypocritical. Tories and right wingers love having a go at benefit scroungers, using them as a reason to slash benefits, yet less than 1% of those claiming welfare are 'scroungers'. Yet this proportion, significant enough for them to create keystone policy around, is seen as 'insignificant' when people talk about zero-hours contracts. Why? Maybe, just maybe, it's because that type of hypocrisy allows them to ignore the issues of the poorest in our society. Just a thought.

Also, considering these type of contracts are pretty new, I would actually say 3% is actually a pretty alarming figure, and of course it is representative of the increased insecurity of most jobs in this country.

Where have I accused people of being "Benefit scroungers" ? I was just responding to the Left's "Zero-Hours" mantra.

And these types of contracts are NOT a new 'Invention' at all.In fact far from inflicting misery on the majority of workers some 66% said they didn't want to work more hours and only 1 in 10 on zero-hours contracts said they would like a different job.

In terms of so called Tories "Exploitation" of zero-hours contracts, last June the Government took action to ban so called exclusivity deals which prevented people on zero-hours contracts from working elsewhere.Labour have NOTHING to boast about - In 1995 they promised tro ban them after it emerged they were used in UK fast food chains but they failed to act in THREE terms in power.

Anyway off my "Soapbox" for now - I need to continue canvassing !

Edited by Willo (05 May 2015 4.35pm)

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 05 May 15 4.13pm

I think the problem is that sound bytes have replaced understanding of issues.

Zero Hour contracts have a place. Where they don't have a place is as a standard working practice contract. Not every job is suited to formal working practices and contracts.

Stores and Business using zero hour contracts for permanent staff when they are open regular hours to cover regular work, is an abuse.

There are jobs however where zero hour contracts have a very valid place.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 05 May 15 4.17pm

Quote Pussay Patrol at 05 May 2015 2.43pm

Quote Willo at 05 May 2015 8.18am

Quote Anerley-Fried-Eagle at 05 May 2015 4.24am

Which would obviously explain the rise in zero hour contracts and use of food banks.

So compassionate the tories.

Typical Labour guff about the so called "Epidemic" of "Zero Hours" contracts.

According to the "Office for National Statistics" between Oct and December last year a total of some 700,000 said they were employed on zero-hours contracts in their main job. This represents only 2.3% of people in employment, hardly an epidemic ! Furthermore 80% of the jobs created are full-time and there are nearly 31 Mill in work which is a record.Besides there are many who choose to work on a 'Casual' basis as it suits them to do so and I know quite a few in this category.


Edited by Willo (05 May 2015 8.35am)

Labour would be more compassionate and put them on benefits

That was New Labour's answer to unemployment, put them on the state payroll, either in a non job or benefits

Which isn't actually true. They were probably on zero hour contracts back then. Labour didn't give a sh*t when it was in power. Its only that the Unions took up the issue of such wide scale abuse of Zero hour contracts that Labour had to do anything (and even then they were playing catch up to the unions).

There is a place for zero hour contracts, employing people to fill regular working hours, isn't one of them.

But it was something labour became 'concerned about' because it had to.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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silvertop Flag Portishead 05 May 15 4.42pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Quote derben at 05 May 2015 1.17pm

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 12.22pm

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.58am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 8.54am

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.03am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 7.36am

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 10.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 04 May 2015 9.30pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.38pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 8.28pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.24pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 7.56pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 7.15pm

The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.

Very much agree with your first paragraph.

But do not accept that "This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration." There is no real evidence for this, but there certainly is evidence of low wages, jobs lost or wages cut for existing workers, ongoing housing crisis and other strains on services such as education and health, along with community tensions.

"have a seat at the table" - one voice among 28 which makes us powerless to stop new laws or regulations that are not in the interests of the UK.

"There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage". Even if this were true,(and talk of "wholesale economic collapse" that is mere scare-mungering - look at Greece and Spain if you want to see such collapses, with Italy and France following fast). Even if it were true, it would be worth it to regain control of our own laws, borders, fishing grounds and all the other levers necessary to progress in the interests of the UK rather than some artificially created political entity that is doomed to failure.


well I guess some people can never be convinced. as UKIP boast, it is their view and those of similar little Englander opinion against the world

 

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derben Flag 05 May 15 6.08pm

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 4.42pm

Quote derben at 05 May 2015 1.17pm

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 12.22pm

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.58am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 8.54am

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.03am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 7.36am

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 10.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 04 May 2015 9.30pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.38pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 8.28pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.24pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 7.56pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 7.15pm

The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.

Very much agree with your first paragraph.

But do not accept that "This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration." There is no real evidence for this, but there certainly is evidence of low wages, jobs lost or wages cut for existing workers, ongoing housing crisis and other strains on services such as education and health, along with community tensions.

"have a seat at the table" - one voice among 28 which makes us powerless to stop new laws or regulations that are not in the interests of the UK.

"There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage". Even if this were true,(and talk of "wholesale economic collapse" that is mere scare-mungering - look at Greece and Spain if you want to see such collapses, with Italy and France following fast). Even if it were true, it would be worth it to regain control of our own laws, borders, fishing grounds and all the other levers necessary to progress in the interests of the UK rather than some artificially created political entity that is doomed to failure.


well I guess some people can never be convinced. as UKIP boast, it is their view and those of similar little Englander opinion against the world

Well, one might be convinced by a convincing argument. The usual abuse of 'little Englander' etc simply shows that you cannot answer the obvious flaws in the great EU project.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 05 May 15 6.17pm

Quote derben at 05 May 2015 6.08pm

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 4.42pm

Quote derben at 05 May 2015 1.17pm

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 12.22pm

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.58am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 8.54am

Quote matt_himself at 05 May 2015 8.03am

Quote Kermit8 at 05 May 2015 7.36am

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 10.29pm

Quote Kermit8 at 04 May 2015 9.30pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.38pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 8.28pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.24pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 7.56pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 7.15pm

The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.

Very much agree with your first paragraph.

But do not accept that "This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration." There is no real evidence for this, but there certainly is evidence of low wages, jobs lost or wages cut for existing workers, ongoing housing crisis and other strains on services such as education and health, along with community tensions.

"have a seat at the table" - one voice among 28 which makes us powerless to stop new laws or regulations that are not in the interests of the UK.

"There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage". Even if this were true,(and talk of "wholesale economic collapse" that is mere scare-mungering - look at Greece and Spain if you want to see such collapses, with Italy and France following fast). Even if it were true, it would be worth it to regain control of our own laws, borders, fishing grounds and all the other levers necessary to progress in the interests of the UK rather than some artificially created political entity that is doomed to failure.


well I guess some people can never be convinced. as UKIP boast, it is their view and those of similar little Englander opinion against the world

Well, one might be convinced by a convincing argument. The usual abuse of 'little Englander' etc simply shows that you cannot answer the obvious flaws in the great EU project.


Yes those bloody champagne socialists eh?

 

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derben Flag 05 May 15 6.25pm

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The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.

Very much agree with your first paragraph.

But do not accept that "This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration." There is no real evidence for this, but there certainly is evidence of low wages, jobs lost or wages cut for existing workers, ongoing housing crisis and other strains on services such as education and health, along with community tensions.

"have a seat at the table" - one voice among 28 which makes us powerless to stop new laws or regulations that are not in the interests of the UK.

"There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage". Even if this were true,(and talk of "wholesale economic collapse" that is mere scare-mungering - look at Greece and Spain if you want to see such collapses, with Italy and France following fast). Even if it were true, it would be worth it to regain control of our own laws, borders, fishing grounds and all the other levers necessary to progress in the interests of the UK rather than some artificially created political entity that is doomed to failure.


well I guess some people can never be convinced. as UKIP boast, it is their view and those of similar little Englander opinion against the world

Well, one might be convinced by a convincing argument. The usual abuse of 'little Englander' etc simply shows that you cannot answer the obvious flaws in the great EU project.


Yes those bloody champagne socialists eh?

Aren't you the guy who can't tell the difference between a constituency name and a candidate's name on a UKIP handbill?

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 05 May 15 7.38pm

Quote derben at 05 May 2015 6.25pm

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Quote derben at 05 May 2015 1.17pm

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Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 7.15pm

The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.

Very much agree with your first paragraph.

But do not accept that "This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration." There is no real evidence for this, but there certainly is evidence of low wages, jobs lost or wages cut for existing workers, ongoing housing crisis and other strains on services such as education and health, along with community tensions.

"have a seat at the table" - one voice among 28 which makes us powerless to stop new laws or regulations that are not in the interests of the UK.

"There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage". Even if this were true,(and talk of "wholesale economic collapse" that is mere scare-mungering - look at Greece and Spain if you want to see such collapses, with Italy and France following fast). Even if it were true, it would be worth it to regain control of our own laws, borders, fishing grounds and all the other levers necessary to progress in the interests of the UK rather than some artificially created political entity that is doomed to failure.


well I guess some people can never be convinced. as UKIP boast, it is their view and those of similar little Englander opinion against the world

Well, one might be convinced by a convincing argument. The usual abuse of 'little Englander' etc simply shows that you cannot answer the obvious flaws in the great EU project.


Yes those bloody champagne socialists eh?

Aren't you the guy who can't tell the difference between a constituency name and a candidate's name on a UKIP handbill?

Oh yes the constituency of wayne kerr?
Think yer mixing me up with someone else.


Edited by nickgusset (05 May 2015 7.39pm)

 

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derben Flag 05 May 15 8.19pm

Quote nickgusset at 05 May 2015 7.38pm

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Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 4.42pm

Quote derben at 05 May 2015 1.17pm

Quote silvertop at 05 May 2015 12.22pm

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Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 10.29pm

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Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.38pm

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Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 8.24pm

Quote lankygit at 04 May 2015 7.56pm

Quote matt_himself at 04 May 2015 7.15pm

The fact that the Tories are bit too left wing for my liking, and have a bunch of spineless t***s running the show, pales into insignificance compared to this and actual makes me think that voting Tory is a good idea:

[Link]

I respect Russ, and that just reinforces my decision to vote Labour.

He is a hypocrite. He is against the system yet milks it for his own profit. Plus he doesn't practice what he preaches.

For example, he rails against the house market and unscrupulous landlords making money out of the desperate. That is a worthy cause to support. However, he lives in a house he rents for several thousands pounds a month from a shell company based in a tax haven, thus he supports the cycle of the housing bubble.

Lest we not forget that as recently as a month ago he was urging people not vote as he believed there is no point.

If you like tokenism and hypocrisy, then respect the man. If you want something deeper, read some Freidrich Hayek and make your own mind up on economics and society - dont be told what to think by a champagne revolutionary.


Edited by matt_himself (04 May 2015 8.25pm)

I have made my own mind up matt. You will notice I wrote "reinforces my decision".

Believe me, you will regret this decision if Labour get in.

However, it is your freedom to choose who you vote for.


Turning your hand to soothsaying now, I see. A font of future knowledge.

That's it everyone - Matthew the Wise has spoken. Don't. Vote. Labour.

Labour should, by rights, walk this election. There is an unpopular Tory government in power, the Lib Dems are confused & not yet forgiven by their core vote for the coalition and the fringe parties have yet to make the impact they desire.

However, due to their incompetence, Labour will see themselves wiped out in Scotland, people do not think their sums add up and in marginals will vote Conservative.

The Labour leadership is rudderless and reactionary. I can't think of one of them that is a statesman in the making. Chukka Umunna used to look like he could be but he is reverting to '70s politics, like the rest of them are, to try and retain their core vote. They simply don't get it.

The fact that they are claiming to be progressive, when in fact their manifesto and intent is based upon a flawed programme of tax and spend, is laughable.

The worst part, however, is that they are likely to get in to bed with SNP. They will be become a puppet for a 'government' that has the largest deficit in the UK, has the lowest educational standards in the country, a reactionary defence policy and an economic plan based on a falsehood of an inflated oil price.

Tell me with an honest heart that Labour are the economic, social and intellectual saviours of this country. Tell me that you believe that they are talented and worthy of leadership. Tell me that you think they have the resources, are tactile, unified and can resonate with all in his country to create a new Jersulem. Tell me even that you think they are best to shepherd the economy. Tell me they are the best to run the NHS after the debacle of PFI, trusts and botched introduction of market forces into the NHS (I agree that the private sector has a role to play in e NHS but Labours approach was neither something or nothing) during their last government. Tell me that and I know you are lying to yourself and me.

This Labour leadership simply cannot be allowed to run this country. They are failures before a single vote has been cast.


All that and yet i still read it as a helluvalot less damaging than a myopic Little Englander party getting their wish and us out of the EU and the very likely huge economic cost of that fatal decision.

You fear Labour yet welcome UKIP within which the cons far outweigh the pros economically. Your heart is ruling your head like quite a few others on this issue it appears. Thankfully, I trust 90% of the voters to be thinking with a bit more clarity on Thursday and with less of an emotive agenda.

No rebuttal on the above. Interesting...

I am voting with my head on Thursday. I believe we need to reduce our debt, curb spending, curb immigration and have an EU referendum. I believe we need common sense over the NHS and proper debate on how it will be funded now we live longer. We need to reduce the size of government. I believe we should make it easier for people on low wages to live. We should protect our armed forces and renew our nuclear deterrent. I believe we should remain as the UK.

Only one party offers that. The rest are either spineless or incompetent.

Emotive? No. It is a rational thought process that has led me here.

So how are you voting Michael?


Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2015 8.05am)


With an 'X' Matthew. Yourself?

DEFLECTION.


I'll have a go.

Some of the bullet points you make I approve. In some respects, this mid-lefty public sector worker is pretty right wing. Thus, I like reduced debt and smaller government. However, I would go much further than any of the parties in far more private sector involvement in the health sector. It pains to say this but cradle to grave is simply not sustainable with an ageing population. I also would like to see state pensions means tested [and all the other stuff that goes with it like free prescription, bus passes etc.]. While I would set the test quite high, national INSURANCE is just that - it is something to fall back on if you are not provided elsewhere. It cannot be a right.

However, where UKIP fails me is the central parts of their policy. This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration. They say that the Eurozone is failing and we are thus experiencing a flood of workers escaping unemployment. Good! That is how a free market works. The type who cross continents to work in a country where they don't speak the language but who nevertheless succeed are the lifeblood of a nation - or more likely it is their children who will sustain us. We need young people in an ageing population. What do you propose to do to adjust the balance - some sort of compulsory reproduction? The points system is all very well, but it removes the healthy competition element. Also, will people want to come to this country given...

The other issue I have is that the EC is indeed corrupt and poorly functioning. However, it is a small price to continue to pay into this (dis)organisation to have a seat at the table that discusses Europe-wide economic issues. It is more essential to have the advantageous trade deal that comes of being part of the group. True, there are wealthy nations that are outside the EC in EFTA that MAY have us on board. Or they may not. Also, UKIP talk in terms of exit and negotiating trade deals with our major trading partners on the continent. Given we will be on the poor side in terms of bargaining power, do you honestly think that we can impose terms favourable to us? Yes, by all means try and do deals with our former colonies. Those countries that are 1000s of miles away will be only to keen to fleece us on terms wholly favourable to THEM. There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage will trigger a wholesale economic collapse.

From our tough little economy that somehow manages to opt out of much we don't like and has the luxury of looking on smugly as the Eurozone crumbles while we pick up the crumbs, we will be an irrelevant little fringe nation whose words are ignored and whose key workers are lured onto the continent or to the US.

This country is an island; but it is one whose success is founded on trade and close relations with those it buys from and sells to. Immigrants compete with the indigenous population for jobs, homes and services. UKIP appeals to those who are unable or, more likely, unwilling to compete with them. However, from a macro perspective, immigrants generally enrich the nation and severing ties with our major trading body is a turkey voting for Xmas.

Very much agree with your first paragraph.

But do not accept that "This country is doing better than other places BECAUSE of immigration." There is no real evidence for this, but there certainly is evidence of low wages, jobs lost or wages cut for existing workers, ongoing housing crisis and other strains on services such as education and health, along with community tensions.

"have a seat at the table" - one voice among 28 which makes us powerless to stop new laws or regulations that are not in the interests of the UK.

"There is a simple reason why the business community is terrified of exiting the EC - the instability and loss of trade advantage". Even if this were true,(and talk of "wholesale economic collapse" that is mere scare-mungering - look at Greece and Spain if you want to see such collapses, with Italy and France following fast). Even if it were true, it would be worth it to regain control of our own laws, borders, fishing grounds and all the other levers necessary to progress in the interests of the UK rather than some artificially created political entity that is doomed to failure.


well I guess some people can never be convinced. as UKIP boast, it is their view and those of similar little Englander opinion against the world

Well, one might be convinced by a convincing argument. The usual abuse of 'little Englander' etc simply shows that you cannot answer the obvious flaws in the great EU project.


Yes those bloody champagne socialists eh?

Aren't you the guy who can't tell the difference between a constituency name and a candidate's name on a UKIP handbill?

Oh yes the constituency of wayne kerr?
Think yer mixing me up with someone else.


Edited by nickgusset (05 May 2015 7.39pm)


Doubt it, there is only one nickgusset (thank goodness)

 

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pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 05 May 15 8.23pm

Getting sweaty palms, am I voting Ukip; am I SUKIPPER? BTW that is an Indian word.

Do I vote Croydon First, good intentions but not thought through.

Croydon First is looking more professional and relevant ATM.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

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