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Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Stoke sub normal 06 Mar 23 11.19pm | |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Correct re. surgical, although it would of course stop some level of it eg. large droplets with lots of delicious virus. But to your point it wouldn't really make that much difference as they're so porus. Always made me laugh people walking about with cloth masks on. Absolutely useless. However, there always seems to be a lot of confusion when this is discussed because for some reason people decide that because better quality masks don't stop all of the virus, then all masks are useless. This is of course, nonsense. It's more or less impossible to stop ANY of it getting out or through unless you do decide to go full specimen and wear and NBC suit as you describe. But, something like an N95 mask, properly worn and sealed does provide a significant benefit to those around you if you have an infection, or if there are viral particles in the air. Why? Masks like that will lower the amount of viral load expelled or inhaled, which also means reduction in the liklihood of you or others catching something (depending on time spend in the vicinity of course, if you're stuck on a busy train for 2 hours then you're screwed either way) or at the very least getting a big hit of it and therefore getting more sick as a result (basically no/light symptoms vs. heavy symptoms). The other thing people fail to take into account is the behavioural aspect of mask wearing combined with the actual mask wearing itself – it became a signal of caution and awareness that this thing was knocking about and to take a bit more care than usual. If they hadn't of been temporarily adopted then I'd assume infection rates would have been much higher – if we're referring to the latest global studies a lot of the numbers back this up. This was covered ages ago in the old thread, but ultimately it's wrong to claim 'masks don't stop (all) of the virus therefore masks are pointless'. Edited by SW19 CPFC (06 Mar 2023 6.23pm) If you knew anything about how a N95 (or FFP3 in this country) work, you would relise that they do not protect anyone not wearing one. They are purely personal protection. To function correctly, they need a release valve to expel moisture as one exhales. Once they become damp, they are as useless against a virus as surgical masks.
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footythoughts Beckenham 07 Mar 23 3.27am | |
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N95 masks have repeatedly shown to be very effective in hospital settings. In multiple studies very few staff wearing them got covid despite being surrounded by it during that period. So it of course has it's uses and is more effective than some wish to paint. The other side of the coin is that during a pandemic, all you can hope with masks is to slow infection. As has been said where something is everywhere, realistically it's unavoidable in the long run. That about sums it up.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Mar 23 9.16am | |
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Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64
Yes, she's wasting her time and our money. There is precious little benefit from surgical masks. Even surgeons don't necessarily wear them during invasive surgery. It is purely continued practice which was introduced over a hundred years ago. You obviously didn't read the Cochrane review. Do you have them on your list of far right conspiracy theorists? You silly sausage. A surgeon who is infection free operating on an infection free patient will decide for themselves which is the safest way to proceed. There is no correlation with the steps taken to try to limit the spread of Covid. I have read the Cochrane report. It will doubtless, along with many others, inform on best practice when making assessments on how to respond if another pandemic occurs. When responding to the Covid pandemic, with a nervous population expecting actions to reassure them, and evidence of mask wearing in Asia in particular as a response to other viruses, mandating their use, alongside social distancing and lockdowns made, and continues to make, perfect sense. It might not again, as the public are now more aware. I wonder if you have read their report! Or whether you have only read the words you want to hear! This is the author's conclusion:-
There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection. Hand hygiene is likely to modestly reduce the burden of respiratory illness, and although this effect was also present when ILI and laboratory‐confirmed influenza were analysed separately, it was not found to be a significant difference for the latter two outcomes. Harms associated with physical interventions were under‐investigated. There is a need for large, well‐designed RCTs addressing the effectiveness of many of these interventions in multiple settings and populations, as well as the impact of adherence on effectiveness, especially in those most at risk of ARIs." In other words the jury is still out, especially on the impact in our own country. What is not in doubt was the need to use every potential tool in the box in a crisis. Not allowing despondency to set in is an important issue in health management. The time for reflection and lesson learning comes later. Which is precisely why we are holding an enquiry and not rushing to judgement whenever something emerges which happens to confirm a deep-seated bias.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Mar 23 9.22am | |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
N95 masks have repeatedly shown to be very effective in hospital settings. In multiple studies very few staff wearing them got covid despite being surrounded by it during that period. So it of course has it's uses and is more effective than some wish to paint. The other side of the coin is that during a pandemic, all you can hope with masks is to slow infection. As has been said where something is everywhere, realistically it's unavoidable in the long run. That about sums it up. Trying to slow the infection until the vaccines were available was the aim. Flattening the curve, so the NHS could cope. Did it work? As we just about coped it seems so, but that doesn't stop some clinging to their beliefs that it was wrong. Lessons will be learned, but not from those with biases and agendas.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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eaglesdare 07 Mar 23 9.45am | |
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Imagine locking down the country over a silly flu with a 99.9 percent survival rate if the catch it. Scaring the life out of the vulnerable and eldery. History will not look back in kind on these events. Especially those who discriminated against people who made informed decisions about thier body to not get the covid vax.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 07 Mar 23 12.26pm | |
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Originally posted by eaglesdare
Imagine locking down the country over a silly flu with a 99.9 percent survival rate if the catch it. Scaring the life out of the vulnerable and eldery. History will not look back in kind on these events. Especially those who discriminated against people who made informed decisions about thier body to not get the covid vax. The ignorance you regularly display on this subject is very unfortunate but, fortunately, not shared by many. That you think Covid is just a "silly flu", or no worse than a cold, says enough really. You clearly haven't witnessed those really suffering from it, or now being affected by long-Covid. History won't view people like you kindly. People who made misinformed, selfish decisions to refuse the vaccines and allow themselves to be unnecessarily exposed to infections themselves, and possibly giving them to others. It's a credit to our tolerant society that we allowed such things to happen. That though does nothing to mitigate my disgust of them.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle 07 Mar 23 12.39pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The ignorance you regularly display on this subject is very unfortunate but, fortunately, not shared by many. That you think Covid is just a "silly flu", or no worse than a cold, says enough really. You clearly haven't witnessed those really suffering from it, or now being affected by long-Covid. History won't view people like you kindly. People who made misinformed, selfish decisions to refuse the vaccines and allow themselves to be unnecessarily exposed to infections themselves, and possibly giving them to others. It's a credit to our tolerant society that we allowed such things to happen. That though does nothing to mitigate my disgust of them. There are many reasons people don't get vaccinated beyond selfishness.
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eaglesdare 07 Mar 23 12.55pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The ignorance you regularly display on this subject is very unfortunate but, fortunately, not shared by many. That you think Covid is just a "silly flu", or no worse than a cold, says enough really. You clearly haven't witnessed those really suffering from it, or now being affected by long-Covid. History won't view people like you kindly. People who made misinformed, selfish decisions to refuse the vaccines and allow themselves to be unnecessarily exposed to infections themselves, and possibly giving them to others. It's a credit to our tolerant society that we allowed such things to happen. That though does nothing to mitigate my disgust of them. I really did touch a nerve there didint I. I like many people looked at the scientific evidence presented or lack there of and made an informed decision to not be vaccinated. Many people looked at the same and decided to get vaccinated. Some people just blindly did as they were told like sheep to wear masks, get the clot shot and stay in their homes. The only selfish people were the ones who made it all about them "oh you have to get the vax to save me" even tho it had little to no effect on transmissions. All the while your lord and masters partied in thier offices creating fear from "new strains" What are you on? your 4th 5th booster shot? you most likely still foolishly wear a mask out in the park on your own too! I laugh at you and all those other people!
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footythoughts Beckenham 07 Mar 23 1.27pm | |
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Originally posted by eaglesdare
Imagine locking down the country over a silly flu with a 99.9 percent survival rate if the catch it. Scaring the life out of the vulnerable and eldery. History will not look back in kind on these events. Especially those who discriminated against people who made informed decisions about thier body to not get the covid vax. Case by case really. The first lockdown was understandable as it was new territory and unknowns. Beyond that it was just more and more destructive to businesses, mental health, those with other health issues. I don't envy those having to make these decisions, but since they often didn't follow the restrictions themselves it further manages faith in them. It was all a crap shoot. If something that comes along that's worse, understandably fewer will listen and the next time your 'informed decision' might get you killed because they're made in the moment not in hindsight. Life is full of unknowns and whether politician or man on the street, best judgement is often just a guess really. The retrospective back patting exercises are more ego based than anything anyone else cares about.
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footythoughts Beckenham 07 Mar 23 1.33pm | |
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Originally posted by eaglesdare
If someones 80, it might be that it's not a bad idea to get boosters, it's not a concept that's unheard of. If your view is that people should make the decision they feel is right for them, it goes against your logic to laugh at someone making those choices.
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footythoughts Beckenham 07 Mar 23 1.37pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Trying to slow the infection until the vaccines were available was the aim. Flattening the curve, so the NHS could cope. Did it work? As we just about coped it seems so, but that doesn't stop some clinging to their beliefs that it was wrong. Lessons will be learned, but not from those with biases and agendas. It made sense to slow the spread at the beginning, most certainly. The repeated lockdowns though did some bundled with many negatives. We also have to factor in though that young people were largely unaffacted by Covid and yet the consequences are substantially long term more theirs to face. As such there are many considerations to be made beyond covid itself. We all have failings and a bias could be the 'i'm alright jack' angle , financially, so it pays to recognise that too. If you're a landlord you in a sense may benefit from others financial difficulties which puts you out of the loop of some peoples very real struggles in life. All perspectives matter not just the covidcentric one.
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Stirlingsays 07 Mar 23 1.40pm | |
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Originally posted by footythoughts
Case by case really. The first lockdown was understandable as it was new territory and unknowns. Beyond that it was just more and more destructive to businesses, mental health, those with other health issues. I don't envy those having to make these decisions, but since they often didn't follow the restrictions themselves it further manages faith in them. It was all a crap shoot. If something that comes along that's worse, understandably fewer will listen and the next time your 'informed decision' might get you killed because they're made in the moment not in hindsight. Life is full of unknowns and whether politician or man on the street, best judgement is often just a guess really. The retrospective back patting exercises are more ego based than anything anyone else cares about. I agree, somewhat that the first lockdown was something that had an argument. As for unknowns and so on....Let's not forget that this isn't an unknown insomuch as new novel viruses have been turning up with human evolution since the start. Let's also acknowledge that pandemic policy was already in place and had been devised over generations of experience of fighting pandemics of the past. The Great Barrington declaration is an example of academics and health professionals having serious concerns over the divergent pathways that governments took from previous policy. If you have never heard of the Great Barrington declaration you can take that as further evidence for the systematic suppression of alternative opinions and approaches that marked this extremely illiberal governance. When it comes to your hindsight point. In fairness there were people on Hol stating the very same takes on this forum when these decisions were taken. So I think that is on a case by case basis. And let's sod anyone's ego, the cost to this country and added cost to the future youth has been beyond many's comprehension. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Mar 2023 1.41pm)
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