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Badger11 Beckenham 12 Jul 21 10.02am
Originally posted by steeleye20 GS and his team a real credit to the country. The rest of it, good riddance. The did well to reach the final it's just annoying that the manager and team failed to learn the lesson of 2018 against Croatia. You should not sit back when you get a goal try and finish the game off without being suicidal. we played well for the 20 minutes after the goal but you could see the Italians were just working us out after that we were on the back foot and the better team won in the end. Kane should have come off at half time for some reason he started really well and then ran out of steam. If I was Spurs I would cash in on Kane now. Rashford should not have been in the squad he lost form in the second half of the season at United and didn't deserve to be there. Henderson should not have gone. We've now had to great chances to win largely because we had favourable draws and we have blown it. I can't get excited about this team which is efficient but not entertaining in tournament football. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 12 Jul 21 10.02am

Originally posted by steeleye20

GS and his team a real credit to the country.

The rest of it, good riddance.

The did well to reach the final it's just annoying that the manager and team failed to learn the lesson of 2018 against Croatia. You should not sit back when you get a goal try and finish the game off without being suicidal.

we played well for the 20 minutes after the goal but you could see the Italians were just working us out after that we were on the back foot and the better team won in the end.

Kane should have come off at half time for some reason he started really well and then ran out of steam. If I was Spurs I would cash in on Kane now.

Rashford should not have been in the squad he lost form in the second half of the season at United and didn't deserve to be there. Henderson should not have gone.

We've now had to great chances to win largely because we had favourable draws and we have blown it.

I can't get excited about this team which is efficient but not entertaining in tournament football.

One more point

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silvertop Portishead 12 Jul 21 10.32am
Originally posted by sickboy Poor post in defence of a poor manager. It should never have gone to penalties. We should have put it away in the first half. We effectively had a one nil lead from kick off , and yet again he failed. I'm seething. We could be world champs, and should be euro champions. If Abramovich was head of the FA and not Chelsea, he would be gone in the morning, and the search would be on for the best successor money could buy( without ffp restrictions). Check our history. A semi followed by a final is unprecedented. And we have had teams with far better individual players than the current crop. Why is that? We were not good enough to beat Croatia or France 3 years ago, but could probably have got a result against the rest, including Brazil and Argentina; and not good enough to beat Italy this time round though we could have beaten every other team including France, Belgium and maybe Spain. We have never taken this competition seriously (except in 96), and usually play lip service to the usual guff about doing the nation proud. This was always a step. The plan was openly stated yonks ago. Win in 2022. This one would have been amazing, but it was always a step on another ladder. You only get the right to wear the star as world champions. This team continues to mature towards the big event in 18 months. Southgate is the right head of a big team to get us there. We tried your way with Cappello, SGE etc. and it did not work. BTW, I agree one criticism. Should bring on penalty subs with at least 5-10 minutes to go so they get a run out and get used to the vibe. It is no coincidence that Kane and Maguire, who started the match, were the only ones to score. He isn't infallible and still has lots to learn.
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silvertop

Portishead 12 Jul 21 10.32am

Originally posted by sickboy

Poor post in defence of a poor manager.
It should never have gone to penalties.
We should have put it away in the first half.
We effectively had a one nil lead from kick off , and yet again he failed.
I'm seething.
We could be world champs, and should be euro champions.
If Abramovich was head of the FA and not Chelsea, he would be gone in the morning, and the search would be on for the best successor money could buy( without ffp restrictions).

Check our history. A semi followed by a final is unprecedented. And we have had teams with far better individual players than the current crop. Why is that?

We were not good enough to beat Croatia or France 3 years ago, but could probably have got a result against the rest, including Brazil and Argentina; and not good enough to beat Italy this time round though we could have beaten every other team including France, Belgium and maybe Spain.

We have never taken this competition seriously (except in 96), and usually play lip service to the usual guff about doing the nation proud. This was always a step.

The plan was openly stated yonks ago. Win in 2022. This one would have been amazing, but it was always a step on another ladder. You only get the right to wear the star as world champions. This team continues to mature towards the big event in 18 months. Southgate is the right head of a big team to get us there.

We tried your way with Cappello, SGE etc. and it did not work.

BTW, I agree one criticism. Should bring on penalty subs with at least 5-10 minutes to go so they get a run out and get used to the vibe. It is no coincidence that Kane and Maguire, who started the match, were the only ones to score. He isn't infallible and still has lots to learn.

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CrazyBadger Ware 12 Jul 21 10.34am
Originally posted by Badger11 The did well to reach the final it's just annoying that the manager and team failed to learn the lesson of 2018 against Croatia. You should not sit back when you get a goal try and finish the game off without being suicidal. we played well for the 20 minutes after the goal but you could see the Italians were just working us out after that we were on the back foot and the better team won in the end. Kane should have come off at half time for some reason he started really well and then ran out of steam. If I was Spurs I would cash in on Kane now. Rashford should not have been in the squad he lost form in the second half of the season at United and didn't deserve to be there. Henderson should not have gone. We've now had to great chances to win largely because we had favourable draws and we have blown it. I can't get excited about this team which is efficient but not entertaining in tournament football. Agree with this. My initial reaction after this game was that the early goal hampered us; we held them at arms length for the remainder of the 1st half, which lead to a 'more of the same' teamtalk, and ultimately meant we sat back more and more. I figured It's a young team, and this was likely. The more I think now, was that the loss firmly lays at the feet of GS. This was the first time that plan 'A' (patient building of pressure) hasn't worked. Half time onwards was littered with managerial errors; --He needed to change things earlier in the 2nd half. --Grealish needed to come on a lot earlier. --Rice was having a great game. replaced him with Hendo in what looked like a pre-determined sub, but made no difference. --Extra time needed a injection of attacking ability (which we have an abundance of on the bench). --Too scared to remove players like Sterling, who wasn't having his best game. Given he wasn't in the Penalty taker category, why not replace him with fresh legs/ideas? --How did Mount get so many minutes? --You don't bring Players on when their first touch is a Penalty in a shoot out. GS Tactics have been spot on all tournament. he hasn't needed to change mid game. but It required it this game, and he failed this test. It's a young team - and young manager. We're not easy to beat, but still struggle against real quality. GS has done enough to warrant a continuation of this project, hopefully all(incl. GS) will learn from this experience. if he's done nothing else, he's gotten me looking forward to major tournaments again. "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"
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CrazyBadger

Ware 12 Jul 21 10.34am

Originally posted by Badger11

we played well for the 20 minutes after the goal but you could see the Italians were just working us out after that we were on the back foot and the better team won in the end.

Kane should have come off at half time for some reason he started really well and then ran out of steam. If I was Spurs I would cash in on Kane now.

Rashford should not have been in the squad he lost form in the second half of the season at United and didn't deserve to be there. Henderson should not have gone.

We've now had to great chances to win largely because we had favourable draws and we have blown it.

I can't get excited about this team which is efficient but not entertaining in tournament football.

Agree with this.
My initial reaction after this game was that the early goal hampered us; we held them at arms length for the remainder of the 1st half, which lead to a 'more of the same' teamtalk, and ultimately meant we sat back more and more. I figured It's a young team, and this was likely.

The more I think now, was that the loss firmly lays at the feet of GS. This was the first time that plan 'A' (patient building of pressure) hasn't worked.
Half time onwards was littered with managerial errors;
--He needed to change things earlier in the 2nd half.
--Grealish needed to come on a lot earlier.
--Rice was having a great game. replaced him with Hendo in what looked like a pre-determined sub, but made no difference.
--Extra time needed a injection of attacking ability (which we have an abundance of on the bench).
--Too scared to remove players like Sterling, who wasn't having his best game. Given he wasn't in the Penalty taker category, why not replace him with fresh legs/ideas?
--How did Mount get so many minutes?
--You don't bring Players on when their first touch is
a Penalty in a shoot out.

GS Tactics have been spot on all tournament. he hasn't needed to change mid game. but It required it this game, and he failed this test.

It's a young team - and young manager. We're not easy to beat, but still struggle against real quality. GS has done enough to warrant a continuation of this project, hopefully all(incl. GS) will learn from this experience. if he's done nothing else, he's gotten me looking forward to major tournaments again.

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

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Palacesince64 Edinburgh 12 Jul 21 10.42am
Italy were the best team in the tournament by far. Watching them play those short one touch passes to get out of tight corners was a football masterclass. Front to back they were pure class. Two 30+ centre backs playing several 120 minute matches and still looking fit and up for it. A midfield able to control the game and find a telling pass and a string of strikers who find space and use it well. England did well to get to the final. Yes they had a favourable draw but you still have to win those games. They did as well as anyone against the Italians. Great for 30 mins but Italy and Mancini generally work teams out given time. As for those penalties Southgate seems to be saying he chose the takers during training in which case it was his first big tactical error of the tournament. Maybe his own history there clouded his judgement but you can’t choose the takers on the practice ground. That keeper is a monster and facing him in a cup final isn’t something you can practice. I agree with Roy Keane. The experienced players should have stepped up and taken responsibility. Disappointed to hear England fans booing Italian players especially Chiesa when he was clearly injured and hobbling off. It was a privilege to watch him play football. Disgusted that so called fans have racially abused the 3 black lads who missed penalties. Maybe Wilf was right to choose not to play for England.
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Palacesince64

Edinburgh 12 Jul 21 10.42am

Italy were the best team in the tournament by far. Watching them play those short one touch passes to get out of tight corners was a football masterclass. Front to back they were pure class. Two 30+ centre backs playing several 120 minute matches and still looking fit and up for it. A midfield able to control the game and find a telling pass and a string of strikers who find space and use it well.

England did well to get to the final. Yes they had a favourable draw but you still have to win those games. They did as well as anyone against the Italians. Great for 30 mins but Italy and Mancini generally work teams out given time. As for those penalties Southgate seems to be saying he chose the takers during training in which case it was his first big tactical error of the tournament. Maybe his own history there clouded his judgement but you can’t choose the takers on the practice ground. That keeper is a monster and facing him in a cup final isn’t something you can practice. I agree with Roy Keane. The experienced players should have stepped up and taken responsibility.

Disappointed to hear England fans booing Italian players especially Chiesa when he was clearly injured and hobbling off. It was a privilege to watch him play football. Disgusted that so called fans have racially abused the 3 black lads who missed penalties. Maybe Wilf was right to choose not to play for England.

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Phil’s Barber Crowborough 12 Jul 21 10.42am
Originally posted by Willo Apropos Saka, I suppose he can console himself with the fact that 2 of his team-mates also missed penalties and they have an impressive penalty taking record. Prior to last night,Rashford had scored 15 and missed 2, Sancho had scored 10 and missed 1. Saka has never taken a penalty for Arsenal to the best of my knowledge. He has scored 2 in a Youth Cup match and in an U18 International friendly and missed 1, in a penalty shoot out in another U18 International friendly. Edited by Willo (12 Jul 2021 8.50am) Why use your ‘knowledge’ for this bit when you’ve used Google for every other statistic in your post Edited by Phil’s Barber (12 Jul 2021 10.58am)
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Phil’s Barber

Crowborough 12 Jul 21 10.42am

Originally posted by Willo

Apropos Saka, I suppose he can console himself with the fact that 2 of his team-mates also missed penalties and they have an impressive penalty taking record.

Prior to last night,Rashford had scored 15 and missed 2, Sancho had scored 10 and missed 1.

Saka has never taken a penalty for Arsenal to the best of my knowledge.

He has scored 2 in a Youth Cup match and in an U18 International friendly and missed 1, in a penalty shoot out in another U18 International friendly.

Edited by Willo (12 Jul 2021 8.50am)

Why use your ‘knowledge’ for this bit when you’ve used Google for every other statistic in your post

Edited by Phil’s Barber (12 Jul 2021 10.58am)

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Phil’s Barber Crowborough 12 Jul 21 10.54am
Originally posted by Badger11 Agreed. Sancho and Saka are kids they get a pass in my book. Where were the experienced players? As for Rashford's penalty, idiotic? He lost form at United during the second half of the season he shouldn't have been selected. During the tournament I saw nothing of his brief appearances to change that opinion. Any coach will tell you when you lose form go back to the basics he should just have taken a run and hit the ball, nothing fancy. I hate all this trickery it looks great when it works but if the keeper guess's right he will save it. Just hit the bloody ball. It was the Rashford penalty miss, when we were ahead, that was the pivotal miss and game changer. Put that one in and the pressure on Italy is HUGE. The miss shifts the momentum back in favour of the Azzurri and completely changes the mindset and situation for Sancho, taking penalty number 4. The Rashford miss was the biggie
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Phil’s Barber

Crowborough 12 Jul 21 10.54am

Originally posted by Badger11

Agreed. Sancho and Saka are kids they get a pass in my book. Where were the experienced players?

As for Rashford's penalty, idiotic?

He lost form at United during the second half of the season he shouldn't have been selected. During the tournament I saw nothing of his brief appearances to change that opinion.

Any coach will tell you when you lose form go back to the basics he should just have taken a run and hit the ball, nothing fancy. I hate all this trickery it looks great when it works but if the keeper guess's right he will save it. Just hit the bloody ball.

It was the Rashford penalty miss, when we were ahead, that was the pivotal miss and game changer. Put that one in and the pressure on Italy is HUGE.
The miss shifts the momentum back in favour of the Azzurri and completely changes the mindset and situation for Sancho, taking penalty number 4.
The Rashford miss was the biggie

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Eaglehamster Storrington 12 Jul 21 11.23am
Decades of continual disappointment has led me to expect little from the national team. When we went one up was the time to go hell for leather and get more, Italy were clearly rattled. Instead we were gradually dominated by Italy and the second half was theirs totally. Italy are good, their passing sublime, even the long stuff. They show us how to play the possession game. Poor use of subs didn't help us. As for the penalties.... been there done that. Shaw's goal (ok it sat beautifully for him) should teach some of our strikers a lesson, head over the ball - basic stuff but there's plenty that would have skied over the bar. Edited by Eaglehamster (12 Jul 2021 11.23am) I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything.
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Eaglehamster

Storrington 12 Jul 21 11.23am

Decades of continual disappointment has led me to expect little from the national team.

When we went one up was the time to go hell for leather and get more, Italy were clearly rattled. Instead we were gradually dominated by Italy and the second half was theirs totally.

Italy are good, their passing sublime, even the long stuff. They show us how to play the possession game.

Poor use of subs didn't help us. As for the penalties.... been there done that.

Shaw's goal (ok it sat beautifully for him) should teach some of our strikers a lesson, head over the ball - basic stuff but there's plenty that would have skied over the bar.

Edited by Eaglehamster (12 Jul 2021 11.23am)

I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything.

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Frickin Saweet South Cronx 12 Jul 21 11.38am
I'd give Southgate the world cup next year. Some of his decision making - or game management as everyone calls it now - is rightly being scrutinised, particularly around the subs. And I think the system we're playing does not allow us to attack in numbers as frequently as I'd like. I would hope that Southgate recognises that in his analysis and adapts his approach accordingly. Southgate part of a much bigger England project that is starting to bear fruit through to the first team - by that I mean the semi in the last WC and yesterday's final. Those were the markers set out by the FA when this plan started. We're no longer bound by making the most of a golden generation of which there is a sell-by date. We have a production line of talent coming through all age groups. So I think that belief in the big project mustn't waiver until it's run its course. It would be easy to pay a mercenary manager to come in and try to win a tour but that would kill the philosophy that we're building.
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Frickin Saweet

South Cronx 12 Jul 21 11.38am

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I'd give Southgate the world cup next year. Some of his decision making - or game management as everyone calls it now - is rightly being scrutinised, particularly around the subs. And I think the system we're playing does not allow us to attack in numbers as frequently as I'd like. I would hope that Southgate recognises that in his analysis and adapts his approach accordingly.

Southgate part of a much bigger England project that is starting to bear fruit through to the first team - by that I mean the semi in the last WC and yesterday's final. Those were the markers set out by the FA when this plan started.

We're no longer bound by making the most of a golden generation of which there is a sell-by date. We have a production line of talent coming through all age groups. So I think that belief in the big project mustn't waiver until it's run its course. It would be easy to pay a mercenary manager to come in and try to win a tour but that would kill the philosophy that we're building.

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CrazyBadger Ware 12 Jul 21 11.57am
Originally posted by Frickin Saweet I'd give Southgate the world cup next year. Some of his decision making - or game management as everyone calls it now - is rightly being scrutinised, particularly around the subs. And I think the system we're playing does not allow us to attack in numbers as frequently as I'd like. I would hope that Southgate recognises that in his analysis and adapts his approach accordingly. Southgate part of a much bigger England project that is starting to bear fruit through to the first team - by that I mean the semi in the last WC and yesterday's final. Those were the markers set out by the FA when this plan started. We're no longer bound by making the most of a golden generation of which there is a sell-by date. We have a production line of talent coming through all age groups. So I think that belief in the big project mustn't waiver until it's run its course. It would be easy to pay a mercenary manager to come in and try to win a tour but that would kill the philosophy that we're building. That's the Rice/Phillips partnership - which I think he stumbled on somewhat. For all their good work; they were the reason we only conceded 2 goals.. we need someone in there to pass through the lines, or at Least Drive forward. Both tried, and at times Phillips took up positions high up the pitch, but it's not what they are good at. Need to keep learning, keep progressing. "It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"
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CrazyBadger

Ware 12 Jul 21 11.57am

Originally posted by Frickin Saweet

I'd give Southgate the world cup next year. Some of his decision making - or game management as everyone calls it now - is rightly being scrutinised, particularly around the subs. And I think the system we're playing does not allow us to attack in numbers as frequently as I'd like. I would hope that Southgate recognises that in his analysis and adapts his approach accordingly.

That's the Rice/Phillips partnership - which I think he stumbled on somewhat.
For all their good work; they were the reason we only conceded 2 goals.. we need someone in there to pass through the lines, or at Least Drive forward.
Both tried, and at times Phillips took up positions high up the pitch, but it's not what they are good at.
Need to keep learning, keep progressing.

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

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orpingtoneagle Orpington 12 Jul 21 11.59am
We can moan about tactics but the managers tactics are the thing that got us to the final. We can moan about the penalties - and I am not a fan of the stutter and stop run up, but those lads stepped up to take them. We had a fantastic tournament overall and bodes well for the future. There was a lot of dignity in Southgates presser this morning. More than shown by our fans at the matches and out and about, who lack the basic respect of another nations anthem, who storm the Stadium, who stick lit flares up there a**e and who Racially abuse their own team. With fans like that we don't deserve to win anything.
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orpingtoneagle

Orpington 12 Jul 21 11.59am

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We can moan about tactics but the managers tactics are the thing that got us to the final. We can moan about the penalties - and I am not a fan of the stutter and stop run up, but those lads stepped up to take them.

We had a fantastic tournament overall and bodes well for the future.

There was a lot of dignity in Southgates presser this morning. More than shown by our fans at the matches and out and about, who lack the basic respect of another nations anthem, who storm the Stadium, who stick lit flares up there a**e and who Racially abuse their own team.

With fans like that we don't deserve to win anything.

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Eaglehamster Storrington 12 Jul 21 12.29pm
Originally posted by orpingtoneagle We can moan about tactics but the managers tactics are the thing that got us to the final. We can moan about the penalties - and I am not a fan of the stutter and stop run up, but those lads stepped up to take them. We had a fantastic tournament overall and bodes well for the future. There was a lot of dignity in Southgates presser this morning. More than shown by our fans at the matches and out and about, who lack the basic respect of another nations anthem, who storm the Stadium, who stick lit flares up there a**e and who Racially abuse their own team. With fans like that we don't deserve to win anything. Spot on. They are an embarrassment. A rabble of chavs who think they're patriots. I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything.
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Eaglehamster

Storrington 12 Jul 21 12.29pm

Originally posted by orpingtoneagle

We had a fantastic tournament overall and bodes well for the future.

With fans like that we don't deserve to win anything.

Spot on. They are an embarrassment. A rabble of chavs who think they're patriots.

I have now sufficient funds to last me the rest of my life. Provided I don't buy anything.

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Frickin Saweet South Cronx 12 Jul 21 12.40pm
Originally posted by orpingtoneagle We can moan about tactics but the managers tactics are the thing that got us to the final. We can moan about the penalties - and I am not a fan of the stutter and stop run up, but those lads stepped up to take them. We had a fantastic tournament overall and bodes well for the future. There was a lot of dignity in Southgates presser this morning. More than shown by our fans at the matches and out and about, who lack the basic respect of another nations anthem, who storm the Stadium, who stick lit flares up there a**e and who Racially abuse their own team. With fans like that we don't deserve to win anything. We don't deserve to win anything because a small proportion of fans are scumbags? Do me a favour. Show me a country or club who doesn't have a pocket of fans like that. It's easy to get carried away and think a few viral videos and disproportionate media reporting tell the whole story. The racist abuse on social media should rightly be called out but it's not right that the majority of good fans suffer because of them. Also worth noting that a lot of the abuse on social media came from outside of the UK - according to Southgate in the presser this morning.
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Frickin Saweet

South Cronx 12 Jul 21 12.40pm

Originally posted by orpingtoneagle

We had a fantastic tournament overall and bodes well for the future.

With fans like that we don't deserve to win anything.

We don't deserve to win anything because a small proportion of fans are scumbags? Do me a favour. Show me a country or club who doesn't have a pocket of fans like that.

It's easy to get carried away and think a few viral videos and disproportionate media reporting tell the whole story.

The racist abuse on social media should rightly be called out but it's not right that the majority of good fans suffer because of them. Also worth noting that a lot of the abuse on social media came from outside of the UK - according to Southgate in the presser this morning.

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