Israel Times 13 July:

"As Israel’s war machine prepares to send ground troops into Gaza, it becomes increasing evident that we have been led into a war against Israel’s interests by Benjamin Netanyahu. No sooner had the American-coaxed peace talks disintegrated, with the formation of the Fatah-Hamas government attempting to bridge the artificial Gaza-West Bank division imposed by Israel as the final nail in the coffin, did the unplanned but politically profitable kidnapping of the three yeshiva students occur. From there, the trajectory into war is paved with Netanyahu’s lies, manipulations and aggression.
Netanyahu led the world to believe that the boys were alive, deceiving their desperate parents and planting false hope that their children would be returned safely when they had compelling evidence – Gil-ad Shaer’s call to the police, the audible gunshots, the kidnappers joyful shouts that they got “three”, the 8 bullet holes, blood and the boy’s DNA in the scorched kidnapping vehicle – that the boys had almost certainly been murdered. Netanyahu’s government launched a massive public relations campaign, including sending the deceived parents of the kidnapped children to the UN to enlist the world in securing their release, and social media campaigns like #BringBackOurBoys to earn the world’s approval for an unapologetic rampage through the West Bank. Vigils were held in Jewish communities in Israel and around the world. The Jewish world unified in hopes of finding the boys alive.
For 11 days during Operation Brother’s Keeper, the IDF turned over every stone in the West Bank, arresting 350 people, including much of Hamas’ West Bank leadership, raiding hundreds of homes and institutions with tenuous connections to Hamas, re-arresting 51 Hamas operatives released in the Shalit prisoner exchange and killing 5 Palestinians who were not involved in the kidnapping. The IDF also illegally confiscated $ 3 million in valuables, including $370,000 in cash and as $2.5 million worth of cars, computers, mobile phones and jewelry from homes, universities, medical facilities, NGO’s, businesses and currency exchanges. Yet, the IDF was so busy sending troops all over the West Bank to destroy Hamas infrastructure, it didn’t actually find the missing boys, whose bodies were located by Israeli civilians on a property owned by one of the suspected kidnappers just a few miles from the site of kidnapping.
Netanyahu exploited the kidnapping of three children to justify the destruction of Hamas in the West Bank, claiming to have indisputable evidence that Hamas is responsible, though no evidence has been offered to counter Hamas’ claim not to have ordered the kidnapping nor to have known where the boys were held. Shlomi Eldar reported that the kidnappers Marwan Qawasmeh and Amar Abu Aisha not only didn’t act under orders from Hamas leadership, but are actually a rouge cell that has broken numerous ceasefires Hamas leadership has agreed to abide by and caused Hamas leadership to be assassinated in response. Not even the rockets launched at Israel since November 2012 have been fired by Hamas, but by the PRC and Islamic Jihad.
Yet, Netanyahu insisted that Hamas was responsible for the kidnapping, and Hamas would pay. When the boys’ bodies were discovered, Israeli society went into a period of national mourning. Israel was in anguish and grief. The strong emotional reaction was due in part due to horrific nature of their killings and in part because the Israeli public had been led to believe that the boys were alive, and many expected them to be brought home safely. Then the public realized that the boys had been dead all long, and the politicians and generals knew it. The public had been deceived. Israel’s national trauma turned vengeful, not towards the government, but towards the Palestinians. The environment quickly deteriorated into anti-Palestinian incitement, and hundreds of Israelis rioted in East Jerusalem. This culminated in the brutal murder of Muhamud Abu-Kheidar by Jewish vigilantes, reportedly a Rabbi and several relatives, who kidnapped the boy and burned him alive in a Jerusalem Forest. When Abu-Kheidar’s body was discovered, hundreds of Palestinian residents of Jerusalem and Palestinian citizens of Israel in the Triangle and Wadi Ara took to the streets, reigniting protests that had been going on throughout the 11 day military operation in the West Bank.
The cease fire with Hamas in Gaza, brokered by the US and Egyptian governments on November 21, 2012 with both Israel and Hamas claiming victory, ended on June 29 when Israel killed a Hamas man and Hamas responded with the first rockets in 19 months. Yet, Netanyahu probably did not intend to escalate the crises into war. Reengaging Hamas in Gaza was not Netanyahu’s intent and negated Israel interests. Since Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, Hamas hadn’t fired a single rocket, and had even suppressed fire from other jihadists. 2013 rocket fire against Israel was dramatically lower than previous years. Despite an increase in rocket firings in 2014, in 2013 “only” 41 rockets were fired against Israel, compared with 2248 in 2012. Neither side truly wished to end to cease-fire. Yet neither Israel nor Hamas is willing to stop shooting first.
Now, with 160 Palestinian casualties in the first week of Operation Protective Cliff, as 40,000 IDF soldiers prepare to be called up, we need the government of Egypt to broker a cease fire that will enable both sides to claim victory and resume the tense quiet. Now, with Israel under fire, and rockets falling on Israel in places we never thought they’d reach, it’s time to internalize that there is no military solution to this conflict. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians can bomb the hatred out of their adversaries. They can only address one another’s legitimate concerns and engage in a diplomatic process towards a solution".

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Probably quoting a bit too much text. I fully understand your response particularly as there was quite a lot of European anti-semiticism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. However, I would have to say that I haven't really misundertood Zionism. I fully understand what it is and what brought it about. Obviously I only have this forum to post on and not the luxury of a historychapter/article/book to write on it [although this is turning into one!]. I don't really believe that a Jewish nation was required though, nor do I believe that Isreal is Zion. I also fully realise that not all Isrealis and not all Jews are Zionists. More, this is radical or even fundamentalist Jews. I don't for one second think that people suddenly decided to take Isreal by force but over time that is exactly what happened - the full genesis [pardon this] of Zionism will require a lot more fleshing out than I can do in this post and is quite a contentious issue - among even Jewish historians.
I'm sorry for sounding particularly anti-Isreali but I am anti a religious state of any particular religion and don't agree with any of the mono-religious states. As for believing 'hoary' history books - I don't. I am a professional historian for what it is worth. I have really formed my own, fact-based opinion on Isreal.
In Ireland, for example, the country was for a long time really only tolerant of Roman Catholics and frankly it did no-one any good - not even the Catholics. I don't believe the current Isreali state is doing much good for anyone - including Jews themselves.
As for the US controlling Isreal - I don't fully believe that; however the nature of US politics allows for strong interest lobby groups to have a great say in policy. I think you would agree that the Jewish lobby has quite a decent say in US policy wouldn't you?
I also think that the 'War on terror' and anti-Islamic rhetoric has only fed into Muslim fundamentalism and allowed a lot of anti-Islamic feeling with little basis.
A combination of things has really allowed the more radical politics and beliefs of all parties to come to the fore. I believe in liberal politics and for as much freedom as possible - the cornerstone of British parliamentary politics - which I applaud. Gaza in particular can hardly be described as free by any means, whilst there has been a move over recent years for more liberal politics to emerge in the less controversial Palestine territories.
There is never only one view of history, or even an agreed history of nearly all subjects. If there were there would be no history as an academic discipline and I would have to go back to my former life [where I had much more money but just as many arguments]. Thanks for your input. I was't really looking for anything other than putting my own view across.

Edited by ASCPFC (17 Jul 2014 12.15pm)

Its always nice to get a thoughtful,rational response, regardless of whether it supports or challenges my opinion.

In fact, as I hope most who read my posting will realise, I don't personally consider myself a supporter of Zionism or of Israel's current actions.

There are certainly well-funded pro-Israeli Government organisations in the US. There are also a lot of Jewish people there who are appalled by Israel's actions. Thus, the difficulty comes when we adopt ways of thinking or language that end up attributing the actions of a section of a group to the whole group, ie "Jewish lobby". Demonisation of Muslims being a good case in point. I quite agree with you that the "War on Terror" was misconceived and in some cases might have been better described as the "War of Terror". Its often really hard (which is why we have to try that much harder not to do it) not to inadvertently completely demonise all members of one side or other, giving virtually the whole group on a particular side a common stigma, however much we feel the "side" we support has a just cause.

I hope your final para made you feel clever. Then,at least it served a purpose, however minor. Though it did show your propensity to attribute characteristics wantonly to a whole group of people, whether in a profession, or an ethnic/religious group.

It was tongue in cheek hence the smiley

Any chance we can leave the Primary School playground gutter out of it in future?

You stop being condescending to anyone else's opinion bar your own, then we have a deal.

You misunderstood my point re Jews. I was talking about in Israel. Also, while you correct my technical details, you don't deal with the substance of the point I was making in response to your's. But lets move on.

Errrr yes I did answer you. The Israeli Government has infinitely more force at it's disposal than HAMAS, and you implied the military wing of HAMAS ran the country of Palestine, I showed you they don't, or does that not fit your agenda?

In case anyone is interested in seeing that opposition to the Israeli Government's policies is indeed is very much alive in Israel, I will post in a minute an article from the Israel Times. Check out also,as an example,the work of Israel human rights group B'T Salem. Check out the "Peace Now" movement. They are a minority but do show that the alarming tendency in some circles to lump all Jews together in a negative context (in Israel or worldwide) is in fact....b.ll.cks...

No one was lumping all Jews together, I said I see little support not no support, but little support, which you have admitted stating they are in the minority.

And unless I've missed something my point still remains that whilst HAMAS are no Angels, in a tale of the tape their activities for want of a better word, disappear into insignificance when compared to the attacks by Israeli GOVERNMENT troops, while the rest of the world looks on saying and doing nothing.

Your living in cloud Cuckoo land mate.

Edited by legaleagle (17 Jul 2014 10.05pm)

Edited by legaleagle (17 Jul 2014 10.11pm)

Edited by dannyh (18 Jul 2014 7.25am)

If you go back to my original posting, you will note I said your overall opinion was one a person could perfectly reasonably hold,ie it was fair enough,I might not agree with absolutely all of it, but I wasn't dissing it.

I was simply trying to argue against one small detail,your suggesting that, on one side was "the whole Israeli government" and on the other just HAMAS.I therefore understood you to be saying "HAMAS" was not "the whole government" of Gaza. I was using the word "HAMAS" (as I thought you were)in the sense of the overall Islamic Resistance Movement, incorporating both the political and military wings.

I had also understood you to be suggesting a very small number of Jews/no Jews not being in line with the Israel Government over Gaza. and yes, we Jews (even those who like me are not Zionists) do get jumpy about wholesale lumping together of the Israeli government/Zionists as "the Jews". Forgive me/us. When I say minority,I mean perhaps a quarter-to a third. Your original words were "what the Jews are doing is nothing short of war crimes". For some reason I didn't understand you just to be referring to the Israeli government/those Israeli Jews supporting them.

Edited by legaleagle (18 Jul 2014 8.36am)

Edited by legaleagle (18 Jul 2014 8.37am)

Edited by dannyh (18 Jul 2014 7.25am)

If you go back to my original posting, you will note I said your overall opinion was one a person could perfectly reasonably hold,ie it was fair enough,I might not agree with absolutely all of it, but I wasn't dissing it.

I was simply trying to argue against one small detail,your suggesting that, on one side was "the whole Israeli government" and on the other just HAMAS.I therefore understood you to be saying "HAMAS" was not "the whole government" of Gaza. I was using the word "HAMAS" (as I thought you were)in the sense of the overall Islamic Resistance Movement, incorporating both the political and military wings.

I had also understood you to be suggesting a very small number of Jews/no Jews not being in line with the Israel Government over Gaza. and yes, we Jews (even those who like me are not Zionists) do get jumpy about wholesale lumping together of the Israeli government/Zionists as "the Jews". Forgive me/us. When I say minority,I mean perhaps a quarter-to a third. Your original words were "what the Jews are doing is nothing short of war crimes". For some reason I didn't understand you just to be referring to the Israeli government/those Israeli Jews supporting them.

Edited by legaleagle (18 Jul 2014 8.36am)

Edited by legaleagle (18 Jul 2014 8.37am)

Please educate me then, who is the second biggest political party in Israel and are they totally opposed to the shelling of kids playing on a beach ?

Because if what you say is accurate and a 1/4 to a 1/3 of Jews are repulsed (as they should be) by the goings on in Gaza, and are opposed to such outright murder on a large and indiscriminate scale, then surely such a number would have a leader, and a voice in Israel, to put pressure on the current turbo nutter that’s in power in Israel a the moment.

I do see your point that not all Jewish people are behind the stance taken by the Israeli government on Palestine, but I really don't see, (and that may be through my own ignorance) any significant Jewish (israel or otherwise) opposition to the constant slaughter of Palestinian people, the majority of which are not HAMAS and just want to live in a house that will stand up for more than a month without being, Bombed, bulldozed, or blown to kingdom come by Israeli artillery.

And unless I am very much mistaken, I'm pretty sure the Palestinians where there first. (and Please don't start quoting the times of the great sky fairy, your better than that.)So on that proviso, it’s a bit small man syndrome to have a foreign policy of “if you fcuk us, we will fcuk you 10 times with a ten foot dildo”.

It can’t be any surprise for you to read the reaction towards Israel, when all we see is the same consistent scenario played out whereby HAMAS fires a few rockets over the wall and some Israeli is on telly moaning about a splinter, and then they retaliate by flattening a Palestinian settlement with air strikes, artillery and tank fire, killing 50 odd men women and children, your just not going to win world wide support/approval for that are you ?

I think that’s what people object to the most, the constant over the top retaliation.
When mainland Britain got bombed in the eighties and ninties by the Provo's we didn't send our Air force over to Dublin and flatten the place. Yes, HAMAS are a pain in the arse and are terrorists, but they are like terrorist lite, or terrorist Zero, and does a few unguided rockets launched in the general direction of Israel warrant shelling and killing children playing on a beach ?

No it does not, and that is my point in a microcosm.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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Edited by legaleagle (18 Jul 2014 6.40pm)