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Hrolf The Ganger 31 Oct 17 12.46pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 True. Terrible crime stats in places like East Belfast and parts of Glasgow and well on a par with other dodgy places and worse in Glasgow's case. Gang culture and drugs but not a black face in sight. Again, this is so typical. Whataboutery and deflection, none of which addresses the point.
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Hrolf The Ganger

31 Oct 17 12.46pm

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Originally posted by Kermit8

True. Terrible crime stats in places like East Belfast and parts of Glasgow and well on a par with other dodgy places and worse in Glasgow's case. Gang culture and drugs but not a black face in sight.

Again, this is so typical. Whataboutery and deflection,
none of which addresses the point.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 31 Oct 17 1.21pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays That's true, crime gangs are in every culture. What's the point of that observation? There are behaviours within Anglo Saxon culture that need better application and direction.....People producing kids and raising them poorly...in many circumstances because they themselves were raised poorly....or the people who run into bad luck and get no support from family nor state. Selfish, irresponsible people produce problems for the rest of us. People who take more than they give in life worsen the well. However, this is a whataboutery argument. Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 12.48pm) I think the point is that when its places like Glasgow, the racial element of the crime tends to be omitted by reports, and there is no discussion of white culture, but then as soon as it switches to black crime, then immediately, its about ethnicity and culture. Realistically, when you look at gang culture, the problems are typically the same. Poverty, poor and unstable family backgrounds, peer involvement, poor educational achievement/involvement, a parent with a history of violence / an escalating history of criminality and an increasingly rate of trouble with the police. Being black, white, Asian etc isn't really a key factor other than the type of gang you tend to get involved with. People like to blame Hip Hop and rap, but for the most part, that appeals to people often because its describing the world around those people. The problem of framing a specific 'black youth' problem to gangs, is that it ends up focusing the problems on a fairly irrelivent factor - the ethnicity of the gang they belong to. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 31 Oct 17 1.21pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

That's true, crime gangs are in every culture. What's the point of that observation?

There are behaviours within Anglo Saxon culture that need better application and direction.....People producing kids and raising them poorly...in many circumstances because they themselves were raised poorly....or the people who run into bad luck and get no support from family nor state.

Selfish, irresponsible people produce problems for the rest of us. People who take more than they give in life worsen the well.

However, this is a whataboutery argument.

Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 12.48pm)

I think the point is that when its places like Glasgow, the racial element of the crime tends to be omitted by reports, and there is no discussion of white culture, but then as soon as it switches to black crime, then immediately, its about ethnicity and culture.

Realistically, when you look at gang culture, the problems are typically the same. Poverty, poor and unstable family backgrounds, peer involvement, poor educational achievement/involvement, a parent with a history of violence / an escalating history of criminality and an increasingly rate of trouble with the police.

Being black, white, Asian etc isn't really a key factor other than the type of gang you tend to get involved with.

People like to blame Hip Hop and rap, but for the most part, that appeals to people often because its describing the world around those people.

The problem of framing a specific 'black youth' problem to gangs, is that it ends up focusing the problems on a fairly irrelivent factor - the ethnicity of the gang they belong to.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 31 Oct 17 1.26pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 True. Terrible crime stats in places like East Belfast and parts of Glasgow and well on a par with other dodgy places and worse in Glasgow's case. Gang culture and drugs but not a black face in sight. There are no black people in Glasgow? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 31 Oct 17 1.26pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

True. Terrible crime stats in places like East Belfast and parts of Glasgow and well on a par with other dodgy places and worse in Glasgow's case. Gang culture and drugs but not a black face in sight.

There are no black people in Glasgow?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 31 Oct 17 1.31pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think the point is that when its places like Glasgow, the racial element of the crime tends to be omitted by reports, and there is no discussion of white culture, but then as soon as it switches to black crime, then immediately, its about ethnicity and culture. Realistically, when you look at gang culture, the problems are typically the same. Poverty, poor and unstable family backgrounds, peer involvement, poor educational achievement/involvement, a parent with a history of violence / an escalating history of criminality and an increasingly rate of trouble with the police. Being black, white, Asian etc isn't really a key factor other than the type of gang you tend to get involved with. People like to blame Hip Hop and rap, but for the most part, that appeals to people often because its describing the world around those people. The problem of framing a specific 'black youth' problem to gangs, is that it ends up focusing the problems on a fairly irrelivent factor - the ethnicity of the gang they belong to. Which, let's be honest, is the only reason why it's brought up by the likes of hrolf. Same with sexual offences , only the ones involving Muslims get widespread coverage.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 31 Oct 17 1.31pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Being black, white, Asian etc isn't really a key factor other than the type of gang you tend to get involved with.

People like to blame Hip Hop and rap, but for the most part, that appeals to people often because its describing the world around those people.

The problem of framing a specific 'black youth' problem to gangs, is that it ends up focusing the problems on a fairly irrelivent factor - the ethnicity of the gang they belong to.

Which, let's be honest, is the only reason why it's brought up by the likes of hrolf. Same with sexual offences , only the ones involving Muslims get widespread coverage.

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Stirlingsays 31 Oct 17 1.43pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think the point is that when its places like Glasgow, the racial element of the crime tends to be omitted by reports, and there is no discussion of white culture, but then as soon as it switches to black crime, then immediately, its about ethnicity and culture. Realistically, when you look at gang culture, the problems are typically the same. Poverty, poor and unstable family backgrounds, peer involvement, poor educational achievement/involvement, a parent with a history of violence / an escalating history of criminality and an increasingly rate of trouble with the police. Being black, white, Asian etc isn't really a key factor other than the type of gang you tend to get involved with. People like to blame Hip Hop and rap, but for the most part, that appeals to people often because its describing the world around those people. The problem of framing a specific 'black youth' problem to gangs, is that it ends up focusing the problems on a fairly irrelivent factor - the ethnicity of the gang they belong to. Ethnicity plays a significant part with the attitudes that the general culture embraces. Proof of this is obvious. It can be seen in the success of ethnicities where the general culture embraces useful attitudes.....hence the relative success of the Jews, certain sections of the Asian community, the Chinese. The general policy of the left has been to point the finger at majority cultures and blame race and other victim-hood ideas for lack of success...Yet the success of certain cultures proves the false premises inherent within those views....it's just not accurate. Look at the ethnicity of the worst performing children in school, they are the white underclass and male. Where I agree with you is that the actual causes of the issues are the same, family breakdowns, lack of fathers, lack of discipline and behavioural standards, respect for education, drugs and so on. As for hip hop and ghetto culture....compare the general levels of crime and behaviour of the Afro Caribbean community of the past with the last forty years in Britain. Not enough Frank Brunos and too many Snoop Doggs. The left have failed these communities by the encouragement of victim-hood attitudes......they gained a lot of their votes though because it's far easier to blame others rather than look at yourself. Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 1.53pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

31 Oct 17 1.43pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Being black, white, Asian etc isn't really a key factor other than the type of gang you tend to get involved with.

People like to blame Hip Hop and rap, but for the most part, that appeals to people often because its describing the world around those people.

The problem of framing a specific 'black youth' problem to gangs, is that it ends up focusing the problems on a fairly irrelivent factor - the ethnicity of the gang they belong to.

Ethnicity plays a significant part with the attitudes that the general culture embraces.

Proof of this is obvious. It can be seen in the success of ethnicities where the general culture embraces useful attitudes.....hence the relative success of the Jews, certain sections of the Asian community, the Chinese.

The general policy of the left has been to point the finger at majority cultures and blame race and other victim-hood ideas for lack of success...Yet the success of certain cultures proves the false premises inherent within those views....it's just not accurate. Look at the ethnicity of the worst performing children in school, they are the white underclass and male.

The left have failed these communities by the encouragement of victim-hood attitudes......they gained a lot of their votes though because it's far easier to blame others rather than look at yourself.

Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 1.53pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 31 Oct 17 1.48pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Ethnicity plays a significant part with the attitudes that the general culture embraces. Proof of this is obvious. It can be seen in the success of ethnicities where the general culture embraces useful attitudes.....hence the relative success of the Jews, certain sections of the Asian community, the Chinese. The general policy of the left has been to point the finger at majority cultures and blame race and other victim-hood ideas for lack of success...Yet the success of certain cultures proves the false premises inherent within those views....it's just not accurate. Look at the ethnicity of the worst performing children in school, they are white and male. Where I agree with you is that the actual causes of the issues are the same, family breakdowns, lack of fathers, lack of discipline and behavioural standards, respect for education, drugs and so on. As for hip hop and ghetto culture....compare the general levels of crime and behaviour of the Afro Caribbean community of the past with the last forty years in Britain. Not enough Frank Brunos and too many Snoop Doggs. The left have failed these communities by the encouragement of victim-hood attitudes......they gained a lot of their votes though because it's far easier to blame others rather than look at yourself. This I agree with, society should not accept or excuse failure but counter it. There is a distinct problem here that doesn't get discussed, because its immediately framed as racist, and that isn't right - Because there is a big issue around crime in parts of black society, just as there is in white society - and that needs to be investigated. Thing is, neither side actually want to do anything about the issues that drive crime. We dismiss too much white crime as being 'racist', and excuse too much black crime on the basis of being racially motivated - and in doing so, we've tied ourselves into arguing about the source of a spreading fire, rather than looking into how to put out the flames. Which is cheaper than dealing with the issues underlying criminality and gangs. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 31 Oct 17 1.48pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Ethnicity plays a significant part with the attitudes that the general culture embraces.

Where I agree with you is that the actual causes of the issues are the same, family breakdowns, lack of fathers, lack of discipline and behavioural standards, respect for education, drugs and so on. As for hip hop and ghetto culture....compare the general levels of crime and behaviour of the Afro Caribbean community of the past with the last forty years in Britain. Not enough Frank Brunos and too many Snoop Doggs.

The left have failed these communities by the encouragement of victim-hood attitudes......they gained a lot of their votes though because it's far easier to blame others rather than look at yourself.

This I agree with, society should not accept or excuse failure but counter it. There is a distinct problem here that doesn't get discussed, because its immediately framed as racist, and that isn't right - Because there is a big issue around crime in parts of black society, just as there is in white society - and that needs to be investigated.

Thing is, neither side actually want to do anything about the issues that drive crime. We dismiss too much white crime as being 'racist', and excuse too much black crime on the basis of being racially motivated - and in doing so, we've tied ourselves into arguing about the source of a spreading fire, rather than looking into how to put out the flames.

Which is cheaper than dealing with the issues underlying criminality and gangs.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 31 Oct 17 1.51pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 There are no black people in Glasgow? 0.3% of the population. There are no black gangs out of the 110 gangs that operate in Glasgow. That's right; one hundred and ten. The White Community need to get their act together. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 31 Oct 17 1.51pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

There are no black people in Glasgow?

0.3% of the population. There are no black gangs out of the 110 gangs that operate in Glasgow. That's right; one hundred and ten.

The White Community need to get their act together.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 31 Oct 17 2.16pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 This I agree with, society should not accept or excuse failure but counter it. There is a distinct problem here that doesn't get discussed, because its immediately framed as racist, and that isn't right - Because there is a big issue around crime in parts of black society, just as there is in white society - and that needs to be investigated. Thing is, neither side actually want to do anything about the issues that drive crime. We dismiss too much white crime as being 'racist', and excuse too much black crime on the basis of being racially motivated - and in doing so, we've tied ourselves into arguing about the source of a spreading fire, rather than looking into how to put out the flames. Which is cheaper than dealing with the issues underlying criminality and gangs. All true. There is little disagreement, even between most right and left on the causes and realities of crime. The difference is usually on the nature of the solutions. Often you find gems of truth from both the left and the right and also policies that lead us nowhere. Class, also is an elephant in the room. Where it is certainly true that under-performing cultures (I prefer that word for some reason) need to look to themselves it is certainly true that.....independent of what your ethnicity, the social class you are born into.....as a general rule dictates where you will end up for the majority. Over time cultures will rise and fall by the attitudes their general mass adopts....but for able individuals within those failing cultures, they get a raw deal indeed, they will face a lack of opportunity and options in general. Every real believer in meritocracy should feel uncomfortable with that. I don't feel comfortable with affirmative action as it undermines meritocracy. But I'd probably support any other action that provided equality of opportunity. If you work hard and try and get on in life society should provide opportunities for you. Regardless of your social class. A lot of warm words are spoken by the right on this....but in the reality the middle classes block people coming up....their kids get the opportunities....sometimes through merit, sometimes not. The world is inherently unfair, but a measure of a culture is in how much it will try to construct fairness within its systems.....I don't say equality as I don't see that as the same thing. Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 2.20pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

31 Oct 17 2.16pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Which is cheaper than dealing with the issues underlying criminality and gangs.

All true.

There is little disagreement, even between most right and left on the causes and realities of crime. The difference is usually on the nature of the solutions.

Often you find gems of truth from both the left and the right and also policies that lead us nowhere.

Class, also is an elephant in the room.

Where it is certainly true that under-performing cultures (I prefer that word for some reason) need to look to themselves it is certainly true that.....independent of what your ethnicity, the social class you are born into.....as a general rule dictates where you will end up for the majority.

Over time cultures will rise and fall by the attitudes their general mass adopts....but for able individuals within those failing cultures, they get a raw deal indeed, they will face a lack of opportunity and options in general.

Every real believer in meritocracy should feel uncomfortable with that.

I don't feel comfortable with affirmative action as it undermines meritocracy. But I'd probably support any other action that provided equality of opportunity.

If you work hard and try and get on in life society should provide opportunities for you. Regardless of your social class. A lot of warm words are spoken by the right on this....but in the reality the middle classes block people coming up....their kids get the opportunities....sometimes through merit, sometimes not.

The world is inherently unfair, but a measure of a culture is in how much it will try to construct fairness within its systems.....I don't say equality as I don't see that as the same thing.

Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 2.20pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 31 Oct 17 2.27pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 0.3% of the population. There are no black gangs out of the 110 gangs that operate in Glasgow. That's right; one hundred and ten. The White Community need to get their act together. No one has ever given a sh1t about the 'white' underclass....not unless it's war time. Though I prefer to take the skin colour out of this because you get lots of non white kids raised as Anglo Saxons as well...and we are what our culture makes us. But as a percentage of population they aren't as bad for crime as other failing cultures.......and while they might rob your house...they will fight in your armies....not in the armies against you. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

31 Oct 17 2.27pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

0.3% of the population. There are no black gangs out of the 110 gangs that operate in Glasgow. That's right; one hundred and ten.

The White Community need to get their act together.

No one has ever given a sh1t about the 'white' underclass....not unless it's war time. Though I prefer to take the skin colour out of this because you get lots of non white kids raised as Anglo Saxons as well...and we are what our culture makes us.

But as a percentage of population they aren't as bad for crime as other failing cultures.......and while they might rob your house...they will fight in your armies....not in the armies against you.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stuk Top half 31 Oct 17 2.55pm
Anyone moderating on this site? This has gone many pages off topic. McGowan has said today that she still considered taking another payoff from Weinstein for continued silence, after realising her first settlement didn't include a non-disclosure agreement. It looks like if anything is actually going to happen to him, it'll probably be by our police forces. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 31 Oct 17 2.55pm

Anyone moderating on this site? This has gone many pages off topic.

McGowan has said today that she still considered taking another payoff from Weinstein for continued silence, after realising her first settlement didn't include a non-disclosure agreement.

It looks like if anything is actually going to happen to him, it'll probably be by our police forces.

Optimistic as ever

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jamiemartin721 Reading 31 Oct 17 3.06pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays No one has ever given a sh1t about the 'white' underclass....not unless it's war time. Though I prefer to take the skin colour out of this because you get lots of non white kids raised as Anglo Saxons as well...and we are what our culture makes us. But as a percentage of population they aren't as bad for crime as other failing cultures.......and while they might rob your house...they will fight in your armies....not in the armies against you. This is definitely true, although they might well end up fighting in the armies against you (British Free Corp of the Waffen SS for example). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 31 Oct 17 3.06pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

But as a percentage of population they aren't as bad for crime as other failing cultures.......and while they might rob your house...they will fight in your armies....not in the armies against you.

This is definitely true, although they might well end up fighting in the armies against you (British Free Corp of the Waffen SS for example).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 31 Oct 17 3.24pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 This is definitely true, although they might well end up fighting in the armies against you (British Free Corp of the Waffen SS for example). Yep, but a unit that never reached more than 27 men in strength during the whole war.....most from German POW camps interestingly. Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 3.30pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

31 Oct 17 3.24pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

This is definitely true, although they might well end up fighting in the armies against you (British Free Corp of the Waffen SS for example).

Yep, but a unit that never reached more than 27 men in strength during the whole war.....most from German POW camps interestingly.

Edited by Stirlingsays (31 Oct 2017 3.30pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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