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Bias against Trump
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 Stirlingsays  17 Aug 17 11.54am |
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Originally posted by wordup
It's not clear and in the context of armed men wearing shields and helmets approaching a group and punching unarmed women etc the mental leaps you're having to make to reach these conclusions is quite something. Well the far right are arseholees I suspect many of them probably hit women. Yep, they were prepared. It's important to see this confrontation within the context of the last few months. These idiots on the far right think they are defending something as do these antifa idiots. In the meantime the normal left and right discuss and try to find solutions that normal people can live with. If people want to protest, they should...protest and obey the law. The Police should arrest people who get out of line.....Personally I don't know why groups are allowed to walk through towns so obviously tooled up...but this is America. Disagreement is fine, violence is complete failure. People need to come together and find solutions not tool up.....But I honestly think you have that percentage of people who like the drama of it.....It makes them feel important....like they are doing something. These morons are a tiny tiny number of people and all this gets blown up. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Aug 2017 11.56am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Aug 17 11.57am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well the far right are arseholees I suspect many of them probably hit women. Yep, they were prepared. It's important to see this confrontation within the context of the last few months. These idiots on the far right think they are defending something as do these antifa idiots. In the meantime the normal left and right discuss and try to find solutions that normal people can live with. If people want to protest, they should...protest and obey the law. The Police should arrest people who get out of line.....Personally I don't know why groups are allowed to walk through towns so obviously tooled up...but this is America. Disagreement is fine, violence is complete failure. People need to come together and find solutions not tool up.....But I honestly think you have that percentage of people who like the drama of it.....It makes them feel important....like they are doing something. These morons are a tiny tiny number of people and all this gets blown up. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Aug 2017 11.56am) You mean like Islamic terrorism in the UK.
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| wordup 17 Aug 17 11.58am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Mmmm...if this situation were transplanted to Wisbech and you had white supremacists marching through Wisbech. Yeah, I think I'd protest that. I wouldn't be turning up for a fight though. I'd be interested in what's going on. I'd expect the Police to do their job on any trouble. In America this event was coming and we are going to get more. You don't need to turn up to a fight to end up in one. In such a situation I would tend to think that the group with hundreds of members carrying guns, batons and with shields and helmets might be the ones who turned up to cause trouble. It's just a hunch though.
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| wordup 17 Aug 17 12.04pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well the far right are arseholees I suspect many of them probably hit women. Yep, they were prepared. It's important to see this confrontation within the context of the last few months. These idiots on the far right think they are defending something as do these antifa idiots. In the meantime the normal left and right discuss and try to find solutions that normal people can live with. If people want to protest, they should...protest and obey the law. The Police should arrest people who get out of line.....Personally I don't know why groups are allowed to walk through towns so obviously tooled up...but this is America. Disagreement is fine, violence is complete failure. People need to come together and find solutions not tool up.....But I honestly think you have that percentage of people who like the drama of it.....It makes them feel important....like they are doing something. These morons are a tiny tiny number of people and all this gets blown up. There are close to 1000 known hate groups in america, ones specifically race related in the three figure rage. Many with hundreds of members. Many of these groups are now joining forces. I think it's easy to confuse 'not a problem' with 'not a problem for me'. I do agree with you have some latch on. Not those joining these groups, but people turning up to events when they are a focal point and so on. That happens on both sides I believe.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Aug 17 12.05pm |
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Originally posted by wordup
It would make sense at Berkeley that most of those causing trouble were on the left. I'm sure I could dig up some kind of alt-right presence too if I wanted but it was a minority. The same here rally. The removal of this monument was something that impacted the type of person who turned up, primarily those on the right, all dressed to impress and tooled up. To be honest most right minded people regardless of their view do not think kindly of white supremacists coming to their town to cause havoc. We can inhabit a mental place where all of the locals are tucked up in bed if we like but I think both the moderate and even mainstream right view of what happened is appears to be more in touch with reality. How exactly is a local person supposed to leave their house and oppose this and be justified, when someone can just clap 'antifa' on the video and have you say that they've been bused in from across the country. I can't be responsible for what people who hold strong alt right sympathies believe. Some things can't be explained away. There's footage of more than one of these extremists saying that they're glad this woman is dead, they want to kill more and so on. These people weren't playing. Edited by wordup (17 Aug 2017 11.50am) You are welcome to look for that Berkeley video. I would be eager to see it. As for local people....Personally I think local people aren't gathering together for organized punch ups over this statue? I do believe it's bussed in... I imagine the local people want these people gone...especially the far right as where they go antifa end up. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Aug 2017 12.08pm)
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| Stirlingsays 17 Aug 17 12.07pm |
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Originally posted by wordup
There are close to 1000 known hate groups in america, ones specifically race related in the three figure rage. Many with hundreds of members. Many of these groups are now joining forces. I think it's easy to confuse 'not a problem' with 'not a problem for me'. I do agree with you have some latch on. Not those joining these groups, but people turning up to events when they are a focal point and so on. That happens on both sides I believe. Yep, it's a problem...it's a country of over 300 million people but I agree it's a problem.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Aug 17 12.12pm |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
You mean like Islamic terrorism in the UK. We have twenty odd thousand on watch lists. In a country of sixty million that is a tiny number but it's obviously growing as the Islamic population grows...doubling as a percentage of the population every ten years....Is that happening in America Nick....errr nope. So yeah, there are parallels but obviously wide differences.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Aug 17 12.36pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well the far right are arseholees I suspect many of them probably hit women. Yep, they were prepared. It's important to see this confrontation within the context of the last few months. These idiots on the far right think they are defending something as do these antifa idiots. In the meantime the normal left and right discuss and try to find solutions that normal people can live with. If people want to protest, they should...protest and obey the law. The Police should arrest people who get out of line.....Personally I don't know why groups are allowed to walk through towns so obviously tooled up...but this is America. Disagreement is fine, violence is complete failure. People need to come together and find solutions not tool up.....But I honestly think you have that percentage of people who like the drama of it.....It makes them feel important....like they are doing something. I doubt they'd be allowed to walk around tooled up in the streets if they were black males. If I remember rightly in their very early days the Black Panthers found a legal way to walk around armed and then Governor Regan introduced legislation to prevent that. You can't defend your 'freedom' if your freedom comes at the price of others - That's the contradiction inherent in White Nationalism - its against about 20% of the US citizens.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Aug 17 12.43pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I doubt they'd be allowed to walk around tooled up in the streets if they were black males. If I remember rightly in their very early days the Black Panthers found a legal way to walk around armed and then Governor Regan introduced legislation to prevent that. You can't defend your 'freedom' if your freedom comes at the price of others - That's the contradiction inherent in White Nationalism - its against about 20% of the US citizens. It's an interesting point.....though obviously when you look at the murder statistics black males aren't having an issue getting tooled up.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Aug 17 12.47pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
No, I read your post. I agreed with a lot of it. Obviously though, I felt your emphasized 'local people' which I felt...well I'm hearing people say this and it's not really the case...Sure everything is to a scale but much of the violence in Charlottesville was from outsiders, both far right and left coming into town for essentially a punch up....all for the media to lap up and feed off....the media indirectly cause the scale to increase. Yep, the far right were there for a punch up. Previous situations at Berkeley and Boston where antifa were essentially using violence to achieve their aims has led to this.....All rallies are now coming with tools....guns? Well...it's inevitable. Having said this, I think it's completely valid to recognise that the far right are a violent group, that while rarely working together commit crimes and violence in the US that should be condemned and recognised....In America they are a larger problem than here and they spring from problematical ideologies rooted in America independence from government......not a problem on a low level, but taken to extremes very much a problem.
Difference really though is that Antifa exist as a protest group against the far right, and their supporters. Where as the otherside, the far right have among their list of political targets Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Hispanics, Leftist, Liberals, Democrats and so on. And that's before you get to the political policies of National Socialists, the KKK et al.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Aug 17 1.02pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Difference really though is that Antifa exist as a protest group against the far right, and their supporters. Where as the otherside, the far right have among their list of political targets Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Hispanics, Leftist, Liberals, Democrats and so on. And that's before you get to the political policies of National Socialists, the KKK et al. It's true....though it shouldn't for forgotten that antifa are also anti capitalist anarchists. This is not a liberal group...they aren't pro liberal. Though I will say that from within their ranks you are obviously find a broad church as within any structure...Their numbers are probably swelling especially since their recent media exposures as 'savers'.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Aug 17 1.29pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's true....though it shouldn't for forgotten that antifa are also anti capitalist anarchists. This is not a liberal group...they aren't pro liberal. Though I will say that from within their ranks you are obviously find a broad church as within any structure...Their numbers are probably swelling especially since their recent media exposures as 'savers'. Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Aug 2017 1.02pm) Nothing wrong with a bit of Anarchism and anti-capitalism, provided your not murdering people and bombing etc. Their number swelling won't last. People will join in the short term, because it makes sense to go where antifa are for this kind of protest (for self defence). But the politics of Marxist dogma won't stick. Its like when the BNP received large support, and then disappeared - the issues that bring people in, aren't enough to keep them. Hard core left dialectics are a difficult taste to acquire.
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