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Israel / Palestine
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 dannyh  wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Jul 14 12.11pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 17 Jul 2014 12.08am
Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 3.15pm
Quote dannyh at 16 Jul 2014 3.02pm
The problem being, IMO is that the volatile element of Palestine is HAMAS, where as the whole of the Israeli Government is the volatile element. In Northern Ireland deals where made between each "political" enforcement arm, how can you do that when an entire nations (if indeed Israel is a nation) power base is the aggressor. Palestine can't win, and what the Jews are doing is nothing short of war crimes, no different to Putin sticking his nose into Ukraine, the world and NATO where up in arms over that little manoeuvre. But say nothing when Israel sends in tanks to demolish Palestinian homes. I'm no supporter of terrorism including HAMAS, but I can’t help but feel Israel are the ones with the attitude problem. Bloody hell. I agree with DannyH-I need a lie down.
Semantics (unsurprisingly) And your wrong actually HAMAS is split into two distinct parts much like Sien Fien has the IRA, HAMAS have a political wing or consultative councils called the Majlis al-Shura, the actual Military wing are called the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. Whom I might add, are about as tooled up as a piss poor 3rd world African Junta. Fire and forget rockets and home made bombs are worlds away from the billion dollar air force, Tanks, Special Forces troops, and Navy that the Israelis possess. Further more I was referring to the Jews in Israel as well you know, however I see little support for the Palestinian plight from Jews outside of Israel, It's not like American Jews are marching on the Whitehouse demonstrating in the name of a fair deal for Palestine is it now? So I don't really see a great deal of difference in the sentiment between Jews the world over and those based in Israel. Bur clearly your in the legal profession and we all know who dominates that murky little world don't we
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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ASCPFC  Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 17 Jul 14 12.14pm |
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Quote Seth at 17 Jul 2014 1.08am
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jul 2014 8.54pm
I don't disagree with some of what you say. Parts of it are certainly a fair enough opinion, though I'm not 100% sure you completely understand the differences between Jews/Israelis/what Zionism actually is (as opposed to what it is misused as shorthand for, or like any ideology, its various streams, including that prevalent in Israel today) But, don't fall into the trap of swallowing everything you read about history. Some people forget precisely what kicked all this off and it can be a lot closer to home than realised. The situation is appalling. Israel frequently acts in an unacceptable way. But, why are we where we are: 1."European Jews" didn't just decide one day to up to Palestine, decide they didn't like living with Arabs and so decide to have a "nationalist" state. 2. Zionism (the general idea of the Jewish people returning from exile to "Zion" and having a national home/entity there,arose as an (in my view misguided) but completely understandable response/solution in the context of the times, a response to having finally had enough of hundreds of years of being treated like complete dirt (actually, far worse given the technology of the times than Palestinians today) by good old European Christian civilisation, fronted up especially by the Catholic Church. Just one example, Catholic priests acting as concentration camp guards in Croatia in the war where Serbs and Jews were slaughtered wholesale. If you are Jewish like me and travel to some parts of E Europe today, you find that some of the underlying attitudes that caused this are far from extinguished in some of our EU partner countries. If people define someone primarily as a Jew (rather than as Polish, Croatian etc), what do you expect those being defined to do? 3.The holocaust was akin to the slaughter and annihilation of Native Americans by (what a coincidence) good old western Christian civilisation. Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are today brutally oppressed by Israel. There is not a holocaust. 4. "We" became nationalist because "we" were told constantly by good old Christian Europe we were inferior and could not be regarded as equal citizens. "We" became nationalist because our religion from 2,000 years ago onwards taught us we were a people who had been ethnically cleansed from biblical Israel.it wasn't a straightforward British/French type colonial situation, though of course there were elements of that. So, secular democratic state of Palestine,I have no intrinsic problem with that idea. But, it just isn't going to happen. So, maybe those Jews in Israel can be given massive reparations by Europe to resettle elsewhere? Only one problem...can any one offer a cast iron guarantee the same old s...t wouldn't start up again? All I am trying to say is, look why this nightmare arose and don't blame the Jews. Blame European anti-Semitism and never forget that when apportioning blame or historical analysis. Its a bit like a very abused child turning out completely crazy and being a psycopath. The starting point was the parents, not the child. Not very good if the parents then blame it all on the bad child. They made the child what it is and why it is so (understandably in the circumstances) paranoid and mutated today. One final point (and apologies for the rant).The European Jews historically over the past 40 years have not been the extremists in Israel. Rather the sephadi (mainly Arabic origin) Jews who came to Israel because they had no choice.after being kicked out of surrounding countries. The (always far more extreme) Israeli right, which had always been a minority before then harnessed their vote and climbed into power. So, yes, criticise Zionism, criticise Israel's actions now etc...but don't fall into the trap of losing all critical faculties. viz: the hoary old canard suggesting "Jews" control America ,the media, the world etc (as per Hamas' own Charter that the Jews were responsible for the French Revolution and world war 2!!!). Like in our country, in the USA,various elites (some domestic, some not)influence power and undermine democracy and ignore international law, This can result in various things...US and British grovelling to the Saudis, US and British blind eye to ingrained apartheid type laws in Muslim (but pro-western) Malaysia, anyone? Britain in Iraq ,anyone? Attack Israel, attack US support for Israel, but there are a lot of uncomfortable things that are less mentioned that we here in Europe should not forget. An excellently put post legal, if I may say so. I don't agree with every word but what you say does carry significant weight. Probably quoting a bit too much text. I fully understand your response particularly as there was quite a lot of European anti-semiticism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. However, I would have to say that I haven't really misundertood Zionism. I fully understand what it is and what brought it about. Obviously I only have this forum to post on and not the luxury of a historychapter/article/book to write on it [although this is turning into one!]. I don't really believe that a Jewish nation was required though, nor do I believe that Isreal is Zion. I also fully realise that not all Isrealis and not all Jews are Zionists. More, this is radical or even fundamentalist Jews. I don't for one second think that people suddenly decided to take Isreal by force but over time that is exactly what happened - the full genesis [pardon this] of Zionism will require a lot more fleshing out than I can do in this post and is quite a contentious issue - among even Jewish historians.
Red and Blue Army! |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 17 Jul 14 2.17pm |
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Quote bright&wright at 16 Jul 2014 9.35pm
It's not Israel's fault they have bigger and better weapons. Can't remember Hamas giving the Israeli's any warning The Jewish people need a country of their own because countries like Iran and hard line Islamic nations would persecute them. There is no mixing of religions, no equality, in their eyes. Even the Sunnis and Shiites can't mix. Bit revisionist, the formation of Israel came largely out of the persecution of the Jews in Europe. After the horrors of the Holocaust, the Zionist movements who'd been among the first to form partisan and resistance groups (most notably in the Eastern Front and Italian north) were armed, and the most populous of Jewish groups. After fighting WWII they decamped to the Middle East to fight the British in Palestine to form the Jewish homeland. Attempts by the Arab nations to destroy Israel in the post war period failed. The initial conflict essentially arose out of the rise of two Nationalist movements Zionism and Arab Nationalism, rather than from sectarianism. Realistically, now, the threat to Israel from the Arab nations is minimal. Militarily Israel is essentially capable beyond the combination of all of those old Arab league nations combined. Iran talks a big game, but has no desire to confront Israel directly (it wouldn't stand a chance) - NB Iran is not an Arab nation (the other Arab nations are no friend of Iran). Pan Arab Nationalism is a dead movement. The failure of Israel to engage in ending the conflict is the only real remaining issue. The other Arab nations would benefit from seeing an end to the conflict, particularly if it meant the right to return of Palestinians, which have been an awkward problem for them since the Deportations and Occupations. Egypt, Syria and Jordon largely co-opertated and supported the PLO, because they had very large numbers of PLO supporters in the refugee camps and their population. And it was better for those nations if they were focused on Israel rather than themselves.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 17 Jul 14 4.24pm |
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Is somebody at the Olympic logo design office trying to tell us something
Lend me a Tenor 31 May to 3 June 2017 John McIntosh Arts Centre with Superfly in the chorus |
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Attachment: | nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Jul 14 5.44pm |
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Found this article, which claims Israel helped the rise of Hamas as a counter to the PLO How often do groups that are funded by someone end up biting them on the arse?
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| Stirlingsays 17 Jul 14 5.48pm |
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When I read some of the posts on this thread I can't help but be reminded of the following clip. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you hum it in the bath.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 17 Jul 14 6.24pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 Jul 2014 5.44pm
Found this article, which claims Israel helped the rise of Hamas as a counter to the PLO How often do groups that are funded by someone end up biting them on the arse? Taliban being a very personal case in point, trained and funded by the CIA to fight the Russians.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 17 Jul 14 6.27pm |
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Quote dannyh at 17 Jul 2014 6.24pm
Quote nickgusset at 17 Jul 2014 5.44pm
Found this article, which claims Israel helped the rise of Hamas as a counter to the PLO How often do groups that are funded by someone end up biting them on the arse? Taliban being a very personal case in point, trained and funded by the CIA to fight the Russians. Classic example of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
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| Stirlingsays 17 Jul 14 6.35pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 17 Jul 2014 6.27pm
Quote dannyh at 17 Jul 2014 6.24pm
Quote nickgusset at 17 Jul 2014 5.44pm
Found this article, which claims Israel helped the rise of Hamas as a counter to the PLO How often do groups that are funded by someone end up biting them on the arse? Taliban being a very personal case in point, trained and funded by the CIA to fight the Russians. Classic example of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Then we could have backed the Northern Alliance.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| davidpercival Croydon 17 Jul 14 7.52pm |
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First of all Mubarak was ousted by the Egyptian people. The US, Britain and France did everything possible to avoid it. Why is it irrationasl for people in an occupied country to resist their oppressors? Were the French resistance irrational? In the event Mubarak Mark 2 is now in power in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood is in prison (if not massacred) so I don't understand the logic of what you have said. Israel have started this latest bout because they don't want a Palestine unity government which will claim its statehood at the UN. When that happens (and it will because after decades of occupation by Israel thw world is waking up to the fact that it cannot no longer tolerate Israel's impunity in the face of international law). If Israel got back in its own borders and stopped cutting off food, power and everything else going into Gaza, they would get support if they were attacked, but not while they occupy other people's land. If I took over some of my neighbour's garden and punched him in the face for asking for it back,the police would arrest me and give my neighbour his land back. That is what the UN should do with Israel. Quote Jonny_Johnson at 18 Nov 2012 8.21pm
Hamas owes America, the UK and France a great many thanks for ousting the Mubarak regime in Egypt. It feels quite justifiably emboldened to act irrationally and provoke Israel into a war. Mubarak was a Western ally and critically, he knew how to curtail the Muslim Brotherhood (of which Hamas is an offshoot). Their plans are to restore an Islamist caliphate over the entire M-E and then into Europe. (They openly admit to that) Israel did not ask for this war, but popular sentiment is that it needs to deal a fatal blow to Hamas and their sponsors.
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 17 Jul 14 7.58pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2014 6.35pm
Quote nickgusset at 17 Jul 2014 6.27pm
Quote dannyh at 17 Jul 2014 6.24pm
Quote nickgusset at 17 Jul 2014 5.44pm
Found this article, which claims Israel helped the rise of Hamas as a counter to the PLO How often do groups that are funded by someone end up biting them on the arse? Taliban being a very personal case in point, trained and funded by the CIA to fight the Russians. Classic example of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Then we could have backed the Northern Alliance. We did prior to invasion, but by that time they had a very small corner of north eastern Afghanista. Which seemed to consist of a lazuli mine and that was about it. Oddly enough the B-52s started bombing just before they were to be wiped out.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| legaleagle 17 Jul 14 9.19pm |
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Quote dannyh at 17 Jul 2014 12.11pm
Quote legaleagle at 17 Jul 2014 12.08am
Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 3.15pm
Quote dannyh at 16 Jul 2014 3.02pm
The problem being, IMO is that the volatile element of Palestine is HAMAS, where as the whole of the Israeli Government is the volatile element. In Northern Ireland deals where made between each "political" enforcement arm, how can you do that when an entire nations (if indeed Israel is a nation) power base is the aggressor. Palestine can't win, and what the Jews are doing is nothing short of war crimes, no different to Putin sticking his nose into Ukraine, the world and NATO where up in arms over that little manoeuvre. But say nothing when Israel sends in tanks to demolish Palestinian homes. I'm no supporter of terrorism including HAMAS, but I can’t help but feel Israel are the ones with the attitude problem.
Semantics (unsurprisingly) And your wrong actually HAMAS is split into two distinct parts much like Sien Fien has the IRA, HAMAS have a political wing or consultative councils called the Majlis al-Shura, the actual Military wing are called the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. Whom I might add, are about as tooled up as a piss poor 3rd world African Junta. Fire and forget rockets and home made bombs are worlds away from the billion dollar air force, Tanks, Special Forces troops, and Navy that the Israelis possess. Further more I was referring to the Jews in Israel as well you know, however I see little support for the Palestinian plight from Jews outside of Israel, It's not like American Jews are marching on the Whitehouse demonstrating in the name of a fair deal for Palestine is it now? So I don't really see a great deal of difference in the sentiment between Jews the world over and those based in Israel. Bur clearly your in the legal profession and we all know who dominates that murky little world don't we
I hope your final para made you feel clever. Then,at least it served a purpose, however minor. Though it did show your propensity to attribute characteristics wantonly to a whole group of people, whether in a profession, or an ethnic/religious group. Any chance we can leave the Primary School playground gutter out of it in future? You misunderstood my point re Jews. I was talking about in Israel. Also, while you correct my technical details, you don't deal with the substance of the point I was making in response to your's. But lets move on. In case anyone is interested in seeing that opposition to the Israeli Government's policies is indeed is very much alive in Israel, I will post in a minute an article from the Israel Times. Check out also,as an example,the work of Israel human rights group B'T Salem. Check out the "Peace Now" movement. They are a minority but do show that the alarming tendency in some circles to lump all Jews together in a negative context (in Israel or worldwide) is in fact....b.ll.cks... Edited by legaleagle (17 Jul 2014 10.05pm) Edited by legaleagle (17 Jul 2014 10.11pm)
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