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 crystal balls  The Garden of Earthly Delights 09 May 14 12.46pm |
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Quote matt_himself at 08 May 2014 3.56pm
Quote serial thriller at 08 May 2014 2.57pm
I know I'm not gonna convince a lot of you to not vote for UKIP in this post but this has been playing around in my mind for the past few days and I feel the need to put it down in writing. Normally I'm a killer for facts but I don't think there's any use in trying to argue with UKIP on a factual level, quite simply because it hasn't worked. I don't necessarily think that UKIP are a racist party, but I do think that they are ideologically misguided. Because what they do is illogical and demonising. What they do is to take a fact, say, that there are immigrants who live in this country who don't work, or don't speak the language. Even as an ardent lefty I don't dispute that this is the case. But with that fact, they use it as sole and exclusive rationale for demonising and castigating these individuals of society. They're not interested in the people themselves; there is no empathetic tone in which they actually regard them as human beings, with reasons for their social situation, with responsibilities and difficulties that place them in that unwanted position. They are merely an unwanted figure, that must be mercilessly taken out of the equation. And it's this lack of viewing human beings as actual human beings - living, caring, unfortunate creatures - that winds me up. Instead they are reduced to a sort of caricatured number on a sheet, proof of and intrinsic solution to our social issues, and most of all a threat to YOUR lifestyle. That's why when I walk down a street and see a poster saying ' 260 million European unemployed want YOUR jobs' I can't help but despair. In a previous world we may have had a bit of sympathy for those unfortunate enough not to have a job. Nowadays we just see them as a threat and a scourge on society. Whatever happened to 'love your neighbour'? It is the divisive tactics of targeting the very lowest in society that was previously only a tactic of the far right, but now seems to have ingratiated itself in to mainstream politics. We don't seem to think how we can help people nowadays, more how we can deal with them. And UKIP are the major culprits of this. Edited by serial thriller (08 May 2014 3.00pm)
You are completely missing the point of why UKIP is attracting support. It is because of he huge changes that have been forced upon people in this country without their consultation - the EU, the left's multicultural project of the past fifty years, the changes in social and work conditions and the erosion of civic responsibilities. People are fed up with being told to do things and told they are bad people if they don't simply agree with whatever agenda is forced upon them. This country is creaking because of uncontrolled immigration. Hospitals, schools, housing and other services are full up and there is little money to increase facilities. No one in UKIP is saying no immigration, they want a new process in place and a debate about it. I believe that the British people are some of the most welcoming of immigrants in the World, so would ask that you don't confuse the desire for a debate on the subject as hostility. Utter, utter bollocks! The lack of intellectual rigour being applied to the content and the arrogance displayed in your posts could be described as breathtaking, if it were not for the sheer banality of the content. Well Matt, maybe a change of username would be appropriate for you; would "up-himself" fit better? Immigration into the UK should not be seen as a problem, but as a necessity. In the years following WW2, the birthrate increased greatly through the 40's 50's and 60's, slowing in the 70's and falling thereafter until quite recently, when it has started to increase once more. The "baby boomers" of the post war years have now retired or are on the cusp of doing so, and these people are living much longer than previous generations. This has given rise to a "double whammy", with far more people in retirement for a much longer period, and a greater number in the new generation who will be in full time education. Neither the retirees or those in education will be contributing very much in direct taxation, so the burden will fall upon a much reduced number of those who are in work and paying taxes. We will be faced with a choice; either state provision of pensions, education, healthcare etc etc will have to be dismantled, or tax rates will need to be greatly increased (50% vat anyone? 100% Inheritance Tax?)or we will need to greatly increase the number of taxpayers. As cloning has yet to receive universal approval, we will therefore need to contract the problem out by importing taxpayers from elsewhere. However much you "debate" the question, these facts won't change. I don't believe that everyone who professes to support UKIP is racist. I do think that a fair few of them hate all foreigners equally, wherever they come from. Xenophobics would be a better description. UKIP will attract a very high percentage of the vote in the Euro elections, and as a one trick pony their stance on Europe will continue to appeal to some. Their problem is when scrutiny is applied to any of their other policies they risk exposure as the loony far right, saloon bar bores that UKIP has sprung from. In the general election they will simply split the Tory vote in many constituencies, thereby increasing the likelihood of Milliband being the next incumbent at number 10.
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Kermit8  Hevon 09 May 14 1.02pm |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 09 May 2014 12.43pm
Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 12.38pm
As it stands I don't see any extremists in UKIP. Give them power and that will change. Cue chest thumping, flag waving, insular, male 'patriots' and a demagogue now at the helm reinforcing their views. The old cuddly speak as they find right-wing buffoons will be long gone by then. I think this is unlikely. Smaller party politicians tend to become more mainstream and risk-averse once they get their grubby paws on a bit of power. npn is right, extremism tends to repel voters, which is why the three "major" parties are so bland and different to tell apart.
It's interesting. Because their voters want them to have power but by doing so they will turn them into another mainstream bland party as you say (if they don't lurch to the 'extreme' right) They will become what they abhor. Catch 22 or what?
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| Kermit8 Hevon 09 May 14 1.05pm |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 09 May 2014 12.17pm
Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 8.27am
You called UKIP "bordering on extreme politicians" - I took that to mean you thought they were extremist. But you didn't say extremist, so I apologise for misrepresenting you.
Edited by Kermit8 (09 May 2014 1.06pm)
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the blazing guns are dormant. Johnny Eagles  berlin 09 May 14 1.13pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 1.05pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 09 May 2014 12.17pm
Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 8.27am
You called UKIP "bordering on extreme politicians" - I took that to mean you thought they were extremist. But you didn't say extremist, so I apologise for misrepresenting you.
Edited by Kermit8 (09 May 2014 1.06pm)
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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| Johnny Eagles berlin 09 May 14 1.18pm |
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Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 1.02pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 09 May 2014 12.43pm
Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 12.38pm
As it stands I don't see any extremists in UKIP. Give them power and that will change. Cue chest thumping, flag waving, insular, male 'patriots' and a demagogue now at the helm reinforcing their views. The old cuddly speak as they find right-wing buffoons will be long gone by then. I think this is unlikely. Smaller party politicians tend to become more mainstream and risk-averse once they get their grubby paws on a bit of power. npn is right, extremism tends to repel voters, which is why the three "major" parties are so bland and different to tell apart.
It's interesting. Because their voters want them to have power but by doing so they will turn them into another mainstream bland party as you say (if they don't lurch to the 'extreme' right) They will become what they abhor. Catch 22 or what? Depends on what they achieve in the process. Take the Greens in Germany, for example. They are now a mainstream party, with all the bland centrism and backroom deals and p*ssing off of their passionate supporters that entails. But they've changed the face of the country. Lots of renewable energy, very environmentally conscious, they've even given up nuclear power. So if UKIP becomes tedious and mainstream, but in so doing, Britain leaves the EU, it will have done its job.
...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread... |
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| matt_himself Matataland 09 May 14 2.02pm |
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Quote crystal balls at 09 May 2014 12.46pm
Quote matt_himself at 08 May 2014 3.56pm
Quote serial thriller at 08 May 2014 2.57pm
I know I'm not gonna convince a lot of you to not vote for UKIP in this post but this has been playing around in my mind for the past few days and I feel the need to put it down in writing. Normally I'm a killer for facts but I don't think there's any use in trying to argue with UKIP on a factual level, quite simply because it hasn't worked. I don't necessarily think that UKIP are a racist party, but I do think that they are ideologically misguided. Because what they do is illogical and demonising. What they do is to take a fact, say, that there are immigrants who live in this country who don't work, or don't speak the language. Even as an ardent lefty I don't dispute that this is the case. But with that fact, they use it as sole and exclusive rationale for demonising and castigating these individuals of society. They're not interested in the people themselves; there is no empathetic tone in which they actually regard them as human beings, with reasons for their social situation, with responsibilities and difficulties that place them in that unwanted position. They are merely an unwanted figure, that must be mercilessly taken out of the equation. And it's this lack of viewing human beings as actual human beings - living, caring, unfortunate creatures - that winds me up. Instead they are reduced to a sort of caricatured number on a sheet, proof of and intrinsic solution to our social issues, and most of all a threat to YOUR lifestyle. That's why when I walk down a street and see a poster saying ' 260 million European unemployed want YOUR jobs' I can't help but despair. In a previous world we may have had a bit of sympathy for those unfortunate enough not to have a job. Nowadays we just see them as a threat and a scourge on society. Whatever happened to 'love your neighbour'? It is the divisive tactics of targeting the very lowest in society that was previously only a tactic of the far right, but now seems to have ingratiated itself in to mainstream politics. We don't seem to think how we can help people nowadays, more how we can deal with them. And UKIP are the major culprits of this. Edited by serial thriller (08 May 2014 3.00pm)
You are completely missing the point of why UKIP is attracting support. It is because of he huge changes that have been forced upon people in this country without their consultation - the EU, the left's multicultural project of the past fifty years, the changes in social and work conditions and the erosion of civic responsibilities. People are fed up with being told to do things and told they are bad people if they don't simply agree with whatever agenda is forced upon them. This country is creaking because of uncontrolled immigration. Hospitals, schools, housing and other services are full up and there is little money to increase facilities. No one in UKIP is saying no immigration, they want a new process in place and a debate about it. I believe that the British people are some of the most welcoming of immigrants in the World, so would ask that you don't confuse the desire for a debate on the subject as hostility. Utter, utter bollocks! The lack of intellectual rigour being applied to the content and the arrogance displayed in your posts could be described as breathtaking, if it were not for the sheer banality of the content. Well Matt, maybe a change of username would be appropriate for you; would "up-himself" fit better? Immigration into the UK should not be seen as a problem, but as a necessity. In the years following WW2, the birthrate increased greatly through the 40's 50's and 60's, slowing in the 70's and falling thereafter until quite recently, when it has started to increase once more. The "baby boomers" of the post war years have now retired or are on the cusp of doing so, and these people are living much longer than previous generations. This has given rise to a "double whammy", with far more people in retirement for a much longer period, and a greater number in the new generation who will be in full time education. Neither the retirees or those in education will be contributing very much in direct taxation, so the burden will fall upon a much reduced number of those who are in work and paying taxes. We will be faced with a choice; either state provision of pensions, education, healthcare etc etc will have to be dismantled, or tax rates will need to be greatly increased (50% vat anyone? 100% Inheritance Tax?)or we will need to greatly increase the number of taxpayers. As cloning has yet to receive universal approval, we will therefore need to contract the problem out by importing taxpayers from elsewhere. However much you "debate" the question, these facts won't change. I don't believe that everyone who professes to support UKIP is racist. I do think that a fair few of them hate all foreigners equally, wherever they come from. Xenophobics would be a better description. UKIP will attract a very high percentage of the vote in the Euro elections, and as a one trick pony their stance on Europe will continue to appeal to some. Their problem is when scrutiny is applied to any of their other policies they risk exposure as the loony far right, saloon bar bores that UKIP has sprung from. In the general election they will simply split the Tory vote in many constituencies, thereby increasing the likelihood of Milliband being the next incumbent at number 10.
I am also uncertain on what you are exactly saying as compared to what I am saying. It appears that you are a natural knee-jerker, instinctively arguing with someone who possesses a polarised view to you. Should you read my posts, you will see that I am an advocate of debate on matters, such as immigration and the EU, something the British public has not been given, either for many years or honestly. I won't insult you, as you did me (albeit of the incredibly timid variety). I do respect your right of opinion without resorting to that.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| matt_himself Matataland 09 May 14 2.04pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 09 May 2014 10.54am
Quote Johnny Eagles at 09 May 2014 10.41am
Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 8.27am
They could well be an unwitting Trojan horse for those with real and dangerous right wing beliefs in the future once they get a small foothold. Not quite sure how it will evolve but purely from an historical perspective better not to take any chances imo with helping a party which could easily swing much further to the right gain some actual power. Having bordering on extreme politicians I'm a bit puzzled, Kermit. On the one hand you say they are extremists, on the other hand that they are an unwitting Trojan Horse. A lot of your opposition to UKIP seems based on the premise that they are extremist, dangerous, right-wing, etc. Yet you and Nick and Serial and Willo haven't actually offered much substance to back up this assertion. It smacks of fear-mongering to be honest. Well funnily enough, I can't find anywhere on the ukip site that they want to scrap the right to paid holiday, maternity pay and want to introduce a flat rate of tax which benefits high earners but penalises the low paid.
Gusset - this is too easy. Find a better, and more convincing argument. NB. Note you haven't come back to me on earlier post. I understand fully why now. Thank you.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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| serial thriller The Promised Land 09 May 14 2.38pm |
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Quote Johnny Eagles at 09 May 2014 10.41am
Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 8.27am
They could well be an unwitting Trojan horse for those with real and dangerous right wing beliefs in the future once they get a small foothold. Not quite sure how it will evolve but purely from an historical perspective better not to take any chances imo with helping a party which could easily swing much further to the right gain some actual power. Having bordering on extreme politicians I'm a bit puzzled, Kermit. On the one hand you say they are extremists, on the other hand that they are an unwitting Trojan Horse. A lot of your opposition to UKIP seems based on the premise that they are extremist, dangerous, right-wing, etc. Yet you and Nick and Serial and Willo haven't actually offered much substance to back up this assertion. It smacks of fear-mongering to be honest.
1. I find their stance on climate change extremely worrying. I can almost accept climate change sceptics, albeit I disagree with them completely, but the fact that the education secretary for UKIP claimed if they got in to power they would stop education of man-made carbon emissions being a major contributor to the issue (linked in a previous post) not only goes against the scientific overriding opinion, it shows a desire to impress their minority views on children which isn't far off the Evangelical desire to teach the Creation story in science classes. For example, I'm against austerity as part of the neo-liberal doctrine that has ruled economics for the past 40 years or so. Doesn't mean I don't think it should be taught in economics classes, just I think all sides of a case should be given. 2. I disagree with their deputy leader's desire to slash the NHS [Link] . I believe that his underlying conviction for wholescale privatisation is an extreme view to hold on the matter and would be incredibly damaging. 3. UKIP's almost total disinclination on any cross-atlantic cooperation in the European Parliament because they hold the misguided belief that it is exclusively bad is an extreme view, and is highlighted in their voting against bills which are quite evidently good, such as tighter enforcement on laws against human trafficking or the killing of protected species. I agree with them that the EU is far from ideal, but to over-exaggerate the detrimental affects of the organisation is to prevent the genuine discussion on Europe they so ardently desire! 4. And of course I detest their conflation of all unemployed Europeans as being a threat to British job security. I think that that's the politics of the far right, as it is total exaggeration and evidently inaccurate, yet they put it as a billboard for the forthcoming elections. I would never stop anyone voting UKIP and sort of see why many may decide to do so in disillusionment. But for the life of me I can't see why people would vote for them based on any other policy except their Euroscepticism, and would argue that, policy-wise, a group such as the Greens, Left Unity or TUSC are much more valid 'protest-vote' alternatives. Edited by serial thriller (09 May 2014 2.41pm)
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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 Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 09 May 14 2.59pm |
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Quote serial thriller at 09 May 2014 2.38pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 09 May 2014 10.41am
Quote Kermit8 at 09 May 2014 8.27am
They could well be an unwitting Trojan horse for those with real and dangerous right wing beliefs in the future once they get a small foothold. Not quite sure how it will evolve but purely from an historical perspective better not to take any chances imo with helping a party which could easily swing much further to the right gain some actual power. Having bordering on extreme politicians I'm a bit puzzled, Kermit. On the one hand you say they are extremists, on the other hand that they are an unwitting Trojan Horse. A lot of your opposition to UKIP seems based on the premise that they are extremist, dangerous, right-wing, etc. Yet you and Nick and Serial and Willo haven't actually offered much substance to back up this assertion. It smacks of fear-mongering to be honest.
1. I find their stance on climate change extremely worrying. I can almost accept climate change sceptics, albeit I disagree with them completely, but the fact that the education secretary for UKIP claimed if they got in to power they would stop education of man-made carbon emissions being a major contributor to the issue (linked in a previous post) not only goes against the scientific overriding opinion, it shows a desire to impress their minority views on children which isn't far off the Evangelical desire to teach the Creation story in science classes. For example, I'm against austerity as part of the neo-liberal doctrine that has ruled economics for the past 40 years or so. Doesn't mean I don't think it should be taught in economics classes, just I think all sides of a case should be given. 2. I disagree with their deputy leader's desire to slash the NHS [Link] . I believe that his underlying conviction for wholescale privatisation is an extreme view to hold on the matter and would be incredibly damaging. 3. UKIP's almost total disinclination on any cross-atlantic cooperation in the European Parliament because they hold the misguided belief that it is exclusively bad is an extreme view, and is highlighted in their voting against bills which are quite evidently good, such as tighter enforcement on laws against human trafficking or the killing of protected species. I agree with them that the EU is far from ideal, but to over-exaggerate the detrimental affects of the organisation is to prevent the genuine discussion on Europe they so ardently desire! 4. And of course I detest their conflation of all unemployed Europeans as being a threat to British job security. I think that that's the politics of the far right, as it is total exaggeration and evidently inaccurate, yet they put it as a billboard for the forthcoming elections. I would never stop anyone voting UKIP and sort of see why many may decide to do so in disillusionment. But for the life of me I can't see why people would vote for them based on any other policy except their Euroscepticism, and would argue that, policy-wise, a group such as the Greens, Left Unity or TUSC are much more valid 'protest-vote' alternatives. Edited by serial thriller (09 May 2014 2.41pm)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 09 May 14 11.07pm |
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This sums it up for me. Edited by nickgusset (09 May 2014 11.08pm)
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Attachment: SloveniaDave  Tirana, Albania 09 May 14 11.20pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 09 May 2014 11.07pm
This sums it up for me. Edited by nickgusset (09 May 2014 11.08pm) While I accept that almost all politicians are suspect, the universal denigration of all of them is unnecessary. You may have a legitimate disagreement with them on policy and you - Nick - more than most. But if we take that level of debate on to your territory, we could just add Scargill and add 'thief/nutter'. I don't think it advances the debate.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand! My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right. (Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive) |
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| The White Horse 09 May 14 11.30pm |
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Quote SloveniaDave at 09 May 2014 11.20pm
Quote nickgusset at 09 May 2014 11.07pm
This sums it up for me. Edited by nickgusset (09 May 2014 11.08pm) While I accept that almost all politicians are suspect, the universal denigration of all of them is unnecessary. You may have a legitimate disagreement with them on policy and you - Nick - more than most. But if we take that level of debate on to your territory, we could just add Scargill and add 'thief/nutter'. I don't think it advances the David Mitchell puts it best:
"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee |
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