Israel / Palestine

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Israel / Palestine

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Kermit8 Hevon 16 Jul 14 4.36pm
Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 4.27pm This is indefensible... [Link] Probably targeted for skimming stones. Children shelled and shrapnel'd to death for being on a beach which happens to be in Gaza. Lovely. Any defenders of the Israeli government on here want to comment? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 16 Jul 14 4.36pm

Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 4.27pm

This is indefensible...
[Link]

Probably targeted for skimming stones.

Children shelled and shrapnel'd to death for being on a beach which happens to be in Gaza.

Lovely.

Any defenders of the Israeli government on here want to comment?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 16 Jul 14 4.39pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 16 Jul 2014 2.10pm Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 1.37pm One significant problem for the Palestines, is they have no coherent strategy or unified spokesperson. They are a fractured group(s) of people from a fractured country. Some want to live as normal a life as possible, others want a political solution, and others want to fight the Israeli land-grabbing machine. Ultimately, shed-loads of Palestinians are dying through indiscriminate Israeli military action, and their homes are being destroyed. Of course Israel was going to accept a ceasefire, knowing full well that some Palestinians would continue fighting. Now it seems they are using that as justification for causing another Holocaust on innocent civilians. No doubt the bulldozers will follow with the construction of new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and the world does nothing What do you think should happen? Perchance, UN involvement ? Before things escalate again. I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 16 Jul 14 4.39pm

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Quote Stirlingsays at 16 Jul 2014 2.10pm

Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 1.37pm

One significant problem for the Palestines, is they have no coherent strategy or unified spokesperson. They are a fractured group(s) of people from a fractured country. Some want to live as normal a life as possible, others want a political solution, and others want to fight the Israeli land-grabbing machine.

Ultimately, shed-loads of Palestinians are dying through indiscriminate Israeli military action, and their homes are being destroyed.

Of course Israel was going to accept a ceasefire, knowing full well that some Palestinians would continue fighting.
Now it seems they are using that as justification for causing another Holocaust on innocent civilians. No doubt the bulldozers will follow with the construction of new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land

and the world does nothing

What do you think should happen?

Perchance, UN involvement ? Before things escalate again.

I disengage, I turn the page.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 16 Jul 14 4.47pm
[Link] Good boy Ozil
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 16 Jul 14 4.47pm

[Link]
Good boy Ozil

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legaleagle 16 Jul 14 8.52pm
... Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.44pm)
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legaleagle

16 Jul 14 8.52pm

...

Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.44pm)

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legaleagle 16 Jul 14 8.54pm
Quote ASCPFC at 16 Jul 2014 1.47pm However, Isreal is really a colonial nation living on pre-WWII principles. There should be no particular Jewish nation but the European Zionists who are nationalist in the extreme (rather ironically) decided that living alongside Arabs was not to their liking. They decided to forge a Jewish nation, by force, out of someone else's country. Althought the history is often not taught to us it was British soldiers who ended up caught up in this - as Palestine was a British mandate. Although the British very much wanted to vilify the Arabs it was plain to see that the aggressors were the European Jews. Feelings amongst the British pretty quickly became anti-Isreali - even all that time ago, sometimes that did even manifest itself as anti-Jewish behaviour. The Isrealis, however, are untouchable due to the Jewish lobby and its money, in US politics. They are a law unto themselves. UN mandates are meaniningless to them as they continue to behave how they want. To balance this out, not all Isrealis are Zionists, but one of the problems is at times of crisis like this, it is the most extreme Isrealis that become more powerful. I have had to stop short at the fear of writing a whole historical thesis. You can look it up yourselves. I advise though that you don't read any sites with a 'mosquebusters' icon! As for the Arabs, they consider themselves a resistance movement. In a way, one can hardly blame them due to the conditions thay have to face and the clear colonial domination Isreal has over Palestine and Gaza. I for one have never believed in the reality or necessity for Isreal as a state so I am staunchly anti-Isreali. Like the British mandate I would like to see a culturally diverse state where all the different religions and ethnicities could live with little fear and with integration. That seems like as much of a pipe-dream as it ever has been whilst the radicals are empowered by outbreaks of violence like this. One thing that interests me about the curent situation is that it was caused by a kidnapping and then by the reprisals. This now seems to have been completely forgotten and it shows how the catalyst for violence - even war - can be relatively small. A bit like the killing of the Austrian Archduke pre WWI. I don't disagree with some of what you say. Parts of it are certainly a fair enough opinion, though I'm not 100% sure you completely understand the differences between Jews/Israelis/what Zionism actually is (as opposed to what it is misused as shorthand for, or like any ideology, its various streams, including that prevalent in Israel today) But, don't fall into the trap of swallowing everything you read about history. Some people forget precisely what kicked all this off and it can be a lot closer to home than realised. The situation is appalling. Israel frequently acts in an unacceptable way. But, why are we where we are: 1."European Jews" didn't just decide one day to up to Palestine, decide they didn't like living with Arabs and so decide to have a "nationalist" state. 2. Zionism (the general idea of the Jewish people returning from exile to "Zion" and having a national home/entity there,arose as an (in my view misguided) but completely understandable response/solution in the context of the times, a response to having finally had enough of hundreds of years of being treated like complete dirt (actually, far worse given the technology of the times than Palestinians today) by good old European Christian civilisation, fronted up especially by the Catholic Church. Just one example, Catholic priests acting as concentration camp guards in Croatia in the war where Serbs and Jews were slaughtered wholesale. If you are Jewish like me and travel to some parts of E Europe today, you find that some of the underlying attitudes that caused this are far from extinguished in some of our EU partner countries. If people define someone primarily as a Jew (rather than as Polish, Croatian etc), what do you expect those being defined to do? 3.The holocaust was akin to the slaughter and annihilation of Native Americans by (what a coincidence) good old western Christian civilisation. Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are today brutally oppressed by Israel. There is not a holocaust. Don't demean (as some posters have) what happened to Jews and Roma in 1939-45 and to the Native Americans etc by suggesting equivalence. 4. "We" became nationalist because "we" were told constantly by good old Christian Europe we were inferior and could not be regarded as equal citizens. "We" became nationalist because our religion from 2,000 years ago onwards taught us we were a people who had been ethnically cleansed from biblical Israel.it wasn't a straightforward British/French type colonial situation, though of course there were elements of that. So, secular democratic state of Palestine,I have no intrinsic problem with that idea. But, it just isn't going to happen. So, maybe those Jews in Israel can be given massive reparations by Europe to resettle elsewhere? Only one problem...can any one offer a cast iron guarantee the same old s...t wouldn't start up again? All I am trying to say is, look why this nightmare arose and don't blame the Jews. Blame European anti-Semitism and never forget that when apportioning blame or historical analysis. Its a bit like a very abused child turning out completely crazy and being a psycopath. The starting point was the parents, not the child. Not very good if the parents then blame it all on the bad child. They made the child what it is and why it is so (understandably in the circumstances) paranoid and mutated today. One final point (and apologies for the rant).The European Jews historically over the past 40 years have not been the extremists in Israel. Rather the sephadi (mainly Arabic origin) Jews who came to Israel because they had no choice.after being kicked out of surrounding countries. The (always far more extreme) Israeli right, which had always been a minority before then harnessed their vote and climbed into power. So, yes, criticise Zionism, criticise Israel's actions now etc...but don't fall into the trap of losing all critical faculties. viz: the hoary old canard suggesting "Jews" control America ,the media, the world etc (as per Hamas' own Charter that the Jews were responsible for the French Revolution and world war 2!!!). Like in our country, in the USA,various elites (some domestic, some not)influence power and undermine democracy and ignore international law, This can result in various things...US and British grovelling to the Saudis, US and British blind eye to ingrained apartheid type laws in Muslim (but pro-western) Malaysia, anyone? Britain in Iraq ,anyone? Attack Israel, attack US support for Israel, but there are a lot of uncomfortable things that are less mentioned that we here in Europe should not forget. Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.43pm) Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.47pm) Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.53pm)
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legaleagle

16 Jul 14 8.54pm

Quote ASCPFC at 16 Jul 2014 1.47pm

However, Isreal is really a colonial nation living on pre-WWII principles. There should be no particular Jewish nation but the European Zionists who are nationalist in the extreme (rather ironically) decided that living alongside Arabs was not to their liking. They decided to forge a Jewish nation, by force, out of someone else's country. Althought the history is often not taught to us it was British soldiers who ended up caught up in this - as Palestine was a British mandate.
Although the British very much wanted to vilify the Arabs it was plain to see that the aggressors were the European Jews. Feelings amongst the British pretty quickly became anti-Isreali - even all that time ago, sometimes that did even manifest itself as anti-Jewish behaviour.
The Isrealis, however, are untouchable due to the Jewish lobby and its money, in US politics. They are a law unto themselves. UN mandates are meaniningless to them as they continue to behave how they want. To balance this out, not all Isrealis are Zionists, but one of the problems is at times of crisis like this, it is the most extreme Isrealis that become more powerful. I have had to stop short at the fear of writing a whole historical thesis. You can look it up yourselves. I advise though that you don't read any sites with a 'mosquebusters' icon!
As for the Arabs, they consider themselves a resistance movement. In a way, one can hardly blame them due to the conditions thay have to face and the clear colonial domination Isreal has over Palestine and Gaza.
I for one have never believed in the reality or necessity for Isreal as a state so I am staunchly anti-Isreali. Like the British mandate I would like to see a culturally diverse state where all the different religions and ethnicities could live with little fear and with integration. That seems like as much of a pipe-dream as it ever has been whilst the radicals are empowered by outbreaks of violence like this.

One thing that interests me about the curent situation is that it was caused by a kidnapping and then by the reprisals. This now seems to have been completely forgotten and it shows how the catalyst for violence - even war - can be relatively small. A bit like the killing of the Austrian Archduke pre WWI.

I don't disagree with some of what you say. Parts of it are certainly a fair enough opinion, though I'm not 100% sure you completely understand the differences between Jews/Israelis/what Zionism actually is (as opposed to what it is misused as shorthand for, or like any ideology, its various streams, including that prevalent in Israel today)

But, don't fall into the trap of swallowing everything you read about history. Some people forget precisely what kicked all this off and it can be a lot closer to home than realised. The situation is appalling. Israel frequently acts in an unacceptable way. But, why are we where we are:

1."European Jews" didn't just decide one day to up to Palestine, decide they didn't like living with Arabs and so decide to have a "nationalist" state.

2. Zionism (the general idea of the Jewish people returning from exile to "Zion" and having a national home/entity there,arose as an (in my view misguided) but completely understandable response/solution in the context of the times, a response to having finally had enough of hundreds of years of being treated like complete dirt (actually, far worse given the technology of the times than Palestinians today) by good old European Christian civilisation, fronted up especially by the Catholic Church. Just one example, Catholic priests acting as concentration camp guards in Croatia in the war where Serbs and Jews were slaughtered wholesale. If you are Jewish like me and travel to some parts of E Europe today, you find that some of the underlying attitudes that caused this are far from extinguished in some of our EU partner countries. If people define someone primarily as a Jew (rather than as Polish, Croatian etc), what do you expect those being defined to do?

3.The holocaust was akin to the slaughter and annihilation of Native Americans by (what a coincidence) good old western Christian civilisation. Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are today brutally oppressed by Israel. There is not a holocaust.
Don't demean (as some posters have) what happened to Jews and Roma in 1939-45 and to the Native Americans etc by suggesting equivalence.

4. "We" became nationalist because "we" were told constantly by good old Christian Europe we were inferior and could not be regarded as equal citizens. "We" became nationalist because our religion from 2,000 years ago onwards taught us we were a people who had been ethnically cleansed from biblical Israel.it wasn't a straightforward British/French type colonial situation, though of course there were elements of that.

So, secular democratic state of Palestine,I have no intrinsic problem with that idea. But, it just isn't going to happen. So, maybe those Jews in Israel can be given massive reparations by Europe to resettle elsewhere? Only one problem...can any one offer a cast iron guarantee the same old s...t wouldn't start up again?

All I am trying to say is, look why this nightmare arose and don't blame the Jews. Blame European anti-Semitism and never forget that when apportioning blame or historical analysis. Its a bit like a very abused child turning out completely crazy and being a psycopath. The starting point was the parents, not the child. Not very good if the parents then blame it all on the bad child. They made the child what it is and why it is so (understandably in the circumstances) paranoid and mutated today.

One final point (and apologies for the rant).The European Jews historically over the past 40 years have not been the extremists in Israel. Rather the sephadi (mainly Arabic origin) Jews who came to Israel because they had no choice.after being kicked out of surrounding countries. The (always far more extreme) Israeli right, which had always been a minority before then harnessed their vote and climbed into power.

So, yes, criticise Zionism, criticise Israel's actions now etc...but don't fall into the trap of losing all critical faculties. viz: the hoary old canard suggesting "Jews" control America ,the media, the world etc (as per Hamas' own Charter that the Jews were responsible for the French Revolution and world war 2!!!). Like in our country, in the USA,various elites (some domestic, some not)influence power and undermine democracy and ignore international law, This can result in various things...US and British grovelling to the Saudis, US and British blind eye to ingrained apartheid type laws in Muslim (but pro-western) Malaysia, anyone? Britain in Iraq ,anyone?

Attack Israel, attack US support for Israel, but there are a lot of uncomfortable things that are less mentioned that we here in Europe should not forget.

Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.43pm)

Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.47pm)

Edited by legaleagle (16 Jul 2014 10.53pm)

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MikeT Burlington (Toronto Area) 16 Jul 14 9.09pm
Quote ASCPFC at 16 Jul 2014 1.47pm ...... One thing that interests me about the curent situation is that it was caused by a kidnapping and then by the reprisals. This now seems to have been completely forgotten and it shows how the catalyst for violence - even war - can be relatively small. A bit like the killing of the Austrian Archduke pre WWI. I found this article interesting in detailing how neither side really wanted the escalation but through their actions pretty well made it inevitable. How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza [Link] Also related links: [Link] [Link] Edited by MikeT (16 Jul 2014 9.13pm)
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MikeT

Burlington (Toronto Area) 16 Jul 14 9.09pm

Quote ASCPFC at 16 Jul 2014 1.47pm

......

I found this article interesting in detailing how neither side really wanted the escalation but through their actions pretty well made it inevitable.

How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza
[Link]

Also related links: [Link] [Link]

Edited by MikeT (16 Jul 2014 9.13pm)

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bright&wright 16 Jul 14 9.35pm
Quote ASCPFC at 16 Jul 2014 1.47pm Quote bright&wright at 16 Jul 2014 8.00am Palastine are bombing Israel. Israel are bombing Palastine. It's not Israel's fault they have bigger and better weapons. Can't remember Hamas giving the Israeli's any warnings before they bombed them? So many people side with the Palastinian's as if they are absolute saints. They ain't. And if it was the other way round they would have taken land off the Isreali's. In fact, most of their mates refuse to even accept Isreal's existence! The persecution of the Jews continues - this time from the looney lefty liberals sticking up for a terrorist organisation like Hamas. Not really like that though is it? I take your point that Hamas are firing rockets (albeit not very good ones) and have even killed one Isreali (allegedly). No-one is really supporting that as far as I'm aware. However, Isreal is really a colonial nation living on pre-WWII principles. There should be no particular Jewish nation but the European Zionists who are nationalist in the extreme (rather ironically) decided that living alongside Arabs was not to their liking. They decided to forge a Jewish nation, by force, out of someone else's country. Althought the history is often not taught to us it was British soldiers who ended up caught up in this - as Palestine was a British mandate. Although the British very much wanted to vilify the Arabs it was plain to see that the aggressors were the European Jews. Feelings amongst the British pretty quickly became anti-Isreali - even all that time ago, sometimes that did even manifest itself as anti-Jewish behaviour. The Isrealis, however, are untouchable due to the Jewish lobby and its money, in US politics. They are a law unto themselves. UN mandates are meaniningless to them as they continue to behave how they want. To balance this out, not all Isrealis are Zionists, but one of the problems is at times of crisis like this, it is the most extreme Isrealis that become more powerful. I have had to stop short at the fear of writing a whole historical thesis. You can look it up yourselves. I advise though that you don't read any sites with a 'mosquebusters' icon! As for the Arabs, they consider themselves a resistance movement. In a way, one can hardly blame them due to the conditions thay have to face and the clear colonial domination Isreal has over Palestine and Gaza. I for one have never believed in the reality or necessity for Isreal as a state so I am staunchly anti-Isreali. Like the British mandate I would like to see a culturally diverse state where all the different religions and ethnicities could live with little fear and with integration. That seems like as much of a pipe-dream as it ever has been whilst the radicals are empowered by outbreaks of violence like this. One thing that interests me about the curent situation is that it was caused by a kidnapping and then by the reprisals. This now seems to have been completely forgotten and it shows how the catalyst for violence - even war - can be relatively small. A bit like the killing of the Austrian Archduke pre WWI. Zionists? Anti-Israel? Really? Sounds a bit Nazi-esque if you ask me. The Jewish people need a country of their own because countries like Iran and hard line Islamic nations would persecute them. There is no mixing of religions, no equality, in their eyes. Even the Sunnis and Shiites can't mix. Personally, I care more about the Assyrians in the middle Eastern regions than anyone else. A peaceful people who did more than their fair share during WW1 and haven't been given the protection they deserve from us. 'We are going to make a little bit of history here’ Mr. J. Ertl.
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bright&wright

16 Jul 14 9.35pm

Quote ASCPFC at 16 Jul 2014 1.47pm

Quote bright&wright at 16 Jul 2014 8.00am

Palastine are bombing Israel. Israel are bombing Palastine.

It's not Israel's fault they have bigger and better weapons.

Can't remember Hamas giving the Israeli's any warnings before they bombed them?

So many people side with the Palastinian's as if they are absolute saints. They ain't. And if it was the other way round they would have taken land off the Isreali's. In fact, most of their mates refuse to even accept Isreal's existence!

The persecution of the Jews continues - this time from the looney lefty liberals sticking up for a terrorist organisation like Hamas.

Not really like that though is it? I take your point that Hamas are firing rockets (albeit not very good ones) and have even killed one Isreali (allegedly). No-one is really supporting that as far as I'm aware.

Zionists? Anti-Israel? Really? Sounds a bit Nazi-esque if you ask me.

The Jewish people need a country of their own because countries like Iran and hard line Islamic nations would persecute them. There is no mixing of religions, no equality, in their eyes. Even the Sunnis and Shiites can't mix.

Personally, I care more about the Assyrians in the middle Eastern regions than anyone else. A peaceful people who did more than their fair share during WW1 and haven't been given the protection they deserve from us.

'We are going to make a little bit of history here’ Mr. J. Ertl.

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Stirlingsays 16 Jul 14 11.39pm
Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 4.39pm Quote Stirlingsays at 16 Jul 2014 2.10pm Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 1.37pm One significant problem for the Palestines, is they have no coherent strategy or unified spokesperson. They are a fractured group(s) of people from a fractured country. Some want to live as normal a life as possible, others want a political solution, and others want to fight the Israeli land-grabbing machine. Ultimately, shed-loads of Palestinians are dying through indiscriminate Israeli military action, and their homes are being destroyed. Of course Israel was going to accept a ceasefire, knowing full well that some Palestinians would continue fighting. Now it seems they are using that as justification for causing another Holocaust on innocent civilians. No doubt the bulldozers will follow with the construction of new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and the world does nothing What do you think should happen? Perchance, UN involvement ? Before things escalate again. How does that happen? Uninvited troops where and in control of what? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

16 Jul 14 11.39pm

Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 4.39pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 16 Jul 2014 2.10pm

Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 1.37pm

Ultimately, shed-loads of Palestinians are dying through indiscriminate Israeli military action, and their homes are being destroyed.

and the world does nothing

What do you think should happen?

Perchance, UN involvement ? Before things escalate again.

How does that happen? Uninvited troops where and in control of what?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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legaleagle 17 Jul 14 12.08am
Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 3.15pm Quote dannyh at 16 Jul 2014 3.02pm The problem being, IMO is that the volatile element of Palestine is HAMAS, where as the whole of the Israeli Government is the volatile element. In Northern Ireland deals where made between each "political" enforcement arm, how can you do that when an entire nations (if indeed Israel is a nation) power base is the aggressor. Palestine can't win, and what the Jews are doing is nothing short of war crimes, no different to Putin sticking his nose into Ukraine, the world and NATO where up in arms over that little manoeuvre. But say nothing when Israel sends in tanks to demolish Palestinian homes. I'm no supporter of terrorism including HAMAS, but I can’t help but feel Israel are the ones with the attitude problem. Bloody hell. I agree with DannyH-I need a lie down. Just one small technical point...HAMAS is the duly elected governing body (the whole of it) in Gaza... ps. Your general opinion is a perfectly reasonable one a person could have, but do read up on the difference between "the Jews" and the current government of Israel...they do not have exactly the same membership.
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legaleagle

17 Jul 14 12.08am

Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 3.15pm

Quote dannyh at 16 Jul 2014 3.02pm

The problem being, IMO is that the volatile element of Palestine is HAMAS, where as the whole of the Israeli Government is the volatile element.

In Northern Ireland deals where made between each "political" enforcement arm, how can you do that when an entire nations (if indeed Israel is a nation) power base is the aggressor.

Palestine can't win, and what the Jews are doing is nothing short of war crimes, no different to Putin sticking his nose into Ukraine, the world and NATO where up in arms over that little manoeuvre. But say nothing when Israel sends in tanks to demolish Palestinian homes.

I'm no supporter of terrorism including HAMAS, but I can’t help but feel Israel are the ones with the attitude problem.

Bloody hell. I agree with DannyH-I need a lie down.

Just one small technical point...HAMAS is the duly elected governing body (the whole of it) in Gaza...

ps. Your general opinion is a perfectly reasonable one a person could have, but do read up on the difference between "the Jews" and the current government of Israel...they do not have exactly the same membership.

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legaleagle 17 Jul 14 12.14am
Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 3.15pm Quote Stirlingsays at 16 Jul 2014 2.10pm Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 1.37pm One significant problem for the Palestines, is they have no coherent strategy or unified spokesperson. They are a fractured group(s) of people from a fractured country. Some want to live as normal a life as possible, others want a political solution, and others want to fight the Israeli land-grabbing machine. Ultimately, shed-loads of Palestinians are dying through indiscriminate Israeli military action, and their homes are being destroyed. Of course Israel was going to accept a ceasefire, knowing full well that some Palestinians would continue fighting. Now it seems they are using that as justification for causing another Holocaust on innocent civilians. No doubt the bulldozers will follow with the construction of new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and the world does nothing What do you think should happen? If we gave Palestine some Trident missiles... 1.Loads of Arab Israelis would also get killed, not to mention anti-Zionist religious Jews living there. 2. If we supported that,we would have to completely abandon any idea of being against the use of nuclear weapons since we can't credibly simply pick up or put down principles over things like that when it suits, can we? 3.We would breach arguably our own international treaty obligations, or does it only matter when a country we don't like does that?
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legaleagle

17 Jul 14 12.14am

Quote nickgusset at 16 Jul 2014 3.15pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 16 Jul 2014 2.10pm

Quote Forest Hillbilly at 16 Jul 2014 1.37pm

Ultimately, shed-loads of Palestinians are dying through indiscriminate Israeli military action, and their homes are being destroyed.

and the world does nothing

What do you think should happen?

If we gave Palestine some Trident missiles...

1.Loads of Arab Israelis would also get killed, not to mention anti-Zionist religious Jews living there.

2. If we supported that,we would have to completely abandon any idea of being against the use of nuclear weapons since we can't credibly simply pick up or put down principles over things like that when it suits, can we?

3.We would breach arguably our own international treaty obligations, or does it only matter when a country we don't like does that?

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Stirlingsays 17 Jul 14 12.50am
We need another camp david and a more realistic offer by Israel. We need some practical guarantees on Israeli safety that are cast in stone.....The water supply is too harsh but perhaps 'no army' or something else would do it. We need the UN involved in implementing the agreement once the agreement is achieved. . We need Hamas out of power and the Labour party back in power in Israel. We need moderates in power on both sides willing to fight their own to win the peace. We need a sodding miracle. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

17 Jul 14 12.50am

We need another camp david and a more realistic offer by Israel. We need some practical guarantees on Israeli safety that are cast in stone.....The water supply is too harsh but perhaps 'no army' or something else would do it.

We need the UN involved in implementing the agreement once the agreement is achieved. .

We need Hamas out of power and the Labour party back in power in Israel.

We need moderates in power on both sides willing to fight their own to win the peace.

We need a sodding miracle.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Seth On a pale blue dot 17 Jul 14 1.08am
Quote legaleagle at 16 Jul 2014 8.54pm I don't disagree with some of what you say. Parts of it are certainly a fair enough opinion, though I'm not 100% sure you completely understand the differences between Jews/Israelis/what Zionism actually is (as opposed to what it is misused as shorthand for, or like any ideology, its various streams, including that prevalent in Israel today) But, don't fall into the trap of swallowing everything you read about history. Some people forget precisely what kicked all this off and it can be a lot closer to home than realised. The situation is appalling. Israel frequently acts in an unacceptable way. But, why are we where we are: 1."European Jews" didn't just decide one day to up to Palestine, decide they didn't like living with Arabs and so decide to have a "nationalist" state. 2. Zionism (the general idea of the Jewish people returning from exile to "Zion" and having a national home/entity there,arose as an (in my view misguided) but completely understandable response/solution in the context of the times, a response to having finally had enough of hundreds of years of being treated like complete dirt (actually, far worse given the technology of the times than Palestinians today) by good old European Christian civilisation, fronted up especially by the Catholic Church. Just one example, Catholic priests acting as concentration camp guards in Croatia in the war where Serbs and Jews were slaughtered wholesale. If you are Jewish like me and travel to some parts of E Europe today, you find that some of the underlying attitudes that caused this are far from extinguished in some of our EU partner countries. If people define someone primarily as a Jew (rather than as Polish, Croatian etc), what do you expect those being defined to do? 3.The holocaust was akin to the slaughter and annihilation of Native Americans by (what a coincidence) good old western Christian civilisation. Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are today brutally oppressed by Israel. There is not a holocaust. Don't demean (as some posters have) what happened to Jews and Roma in 1939-45 and to the Native Americans etc by suggesting equivalence. 4. "We" became nationalist because "we" were told constantly by good old Christian Europe we were inferior and could not be regarded as equal citizens. "We" became nationalist because our religion from 2,000 years ago onwards taught us we were a people who had been ethnically cleansed from biblical Israel.it wasn't a straightforward British/French type colonial situation, though of course there were elements of that. So, secular democratic state of Palestine,I have no intrinsic problem with that idea. But, it just isn't going to happen. So, maybe those Jews in Israel can be given massive reparations by Europe to resettle elsewhere? Only one problem...can any one offer a cast iron guarantee the same old s...t wouldn't start up again? All I am trying to say is, look why this nightmare arose and don't blame the Jews. Blame European anti-Semitism and never forget that when apportioning blame or historical analysis. Its a bit like a very abused child turning out completely crazy and being a psycopath. The starting point was the parents, not the child. Not very good if the parents then blame it all on the bad child. They made the child what it is and why it is so (understandably in the circumstances) paranoid and mutated today. One final point (and apologies for the rant).The European Jews historically over the past 40 years have not been the extremists in Israel. Rather the sephadi (mainly Arabic origin) Jews who came to Israel because they had no choice.after being kicked out of surrounding countries. The (always far more extreme) Israeli right, which had always been a minority before then harnessed their vote and climbed into power. So, yes, criticise Zionism, criticise Israel's actions now etc...but don't fall into the trap of losing all critical faculties. viz: the hoary old canard suggesting "Jews" control America ,the media, the world etc (as per Hamas' own Charter that the Jews were responsible for the French Revolution and world war 2!!!). Like in our country, in the USA,various elites (some domestic, some not)influence power and undermine democracy and ignore international law, This can result in various things...US and British grovelling to the Saudis, US and British blind eye to ingrained apartheid type laws in Muslim (but pro-western) Malaysia, anyone? Britain in Iraq ,anyone? Attack Israel, attack US support for Israel, but there are a lot of uncomfortable things that are less mentioned that we here in Europe should not forget. An excellently put post legal, if I may say so. I don't agree with every word but what you say does carry significant weight. "You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down" FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16
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Seth

On a pale blue dot 17 Jul 14 1.08am

Quote legaleagle at 16 Jul 2014 8.54pm

1."European Jews" didn't just decide one day to up to Palestine, decide they didn't like living with Arabs and so decide to have a "nationalist" state.

Attack Israel, attack US support for Israel, but there are a lot of uncomfortable things that are less mentioned that we here in Europe should not forget.

An excellently put post legal, if I may say so. I don't agree with every word but what you say does carry significant weight.

"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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