Battlefield update:
Ukraine make some gains in the south.

[Link]

Ukr have taken out quite a few russ amo bases with himars guided missiles which are making a big difference

This will go on for years. You can't hold land with artillery.

Not really.

The Ukraine are massively out gunned with artillery.

In truth, if you expect to beat Russia you'd need all of Nato's heavy equipment.....not drips and drabs spread over months....and in truth Nato's trained armies to operate them.

The strategy never made much sense to begin with.....in terms of winning.

It was always about forcing Russia to stop due to economics.

It was pretty dim to begin with but that's the problem with group think and politicians scared to admit failure.

I respect your opinion but I'm afraid we don't agree on most of that.

Personally I don't think this was ever practically a winnable war and I started that at the start.

In my view this war will be over by mid winter at the most and Russia will have their gains in the east and south.

Where I think we can agree here is that Putin and his circle have the responsibility for starting the war.....sure you can talk about the breaking of the Minsk agreements, the 'Ukraine isn't a real country', and cross border shelling but in my view....that and the ridiculous Nazi stuff in no way constitutes a valid reason for an invasion...which essentially means untold numbers of people die....there were other options.

In this thread the different arguments for how this war came about have been discussed and on that I don't agree with the western position and presentation....and that's me going against my own, because my loyalty is to my own people (but not in support of social/neo liberalism and its consequences), but I'm not going to lie.

I don't agree with the western response to this war as rational......which has been to decide on creating a cold war in response and on massively supporting the Zelensky regime....which the more you look into it is far from its portrayal. But to go on about that would be to endlessly repeat points made earlier in the thread.

Still, this war was entirely avoidable and is a tragedy not only economically for the world (with death from hunger a real probability in vulnerable regions) but for every single life lost in the military conflict whoever they were.

I'm not going to waffle on and on but essentially I blame both power structures for why we are here.....but I don't ignore that Russia invaded.

What I want is actual realistic peace to be seriously negotiated....the world of the possible not a future where essentially the vulnerable of the world suffer for the hubris of world leaders who have preferred to prolong this war for their own, in my view, misguided and miscalculated interests.

Peace could have happened back in March but unfortunately I think the wrong decisions were made.

I’m not politically aligned but what baffles me is rose tinted socialists who believe that it’s possible to negotiate with a dictator who rules by fear and tyranny. This can only come about with some parity in weapons because Putin won’t negotiate from a position of strength, not in March or now. That was a publicity stunt to look like they are reasonable whilst they implement genocide

Ukraine ask for weapons to defend their land and sanctions but it’s their existence they are fighting for, the wider political context is irrelevant to them. It’s the Baltic states / Eastern European and Anglo speaking countries that are consistent.

Russia have redirected troops from Finnish border because that is now not a viable target to bully now they are all but a NATO member. So not a question of NATO expansion but more who is vulnerable

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Jul 2022 7.39am)