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jhillman USA 08 Jan 22 9.06pm | |
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Originally posted by Skinnii
IMHO this is a extremely simplistic post addressing a complicated issue. As a broad strategy to reduce the age of the squad and to invest in players that may (MAY not definitely) realise a profit when sold then what you suggest would I guess work. But let me address some of the issues I have with what you suggest: 1. It's too simplistic to say never buy a player over 26 unless they are on a free transfer. With advances in sports science and nutrition players are remaining at their peak longer. Players are no longer burnt out by the age of 30 - look at Ronaldo and Tiago Silva as examples or McArthur who is playing the best football he has in the last 3 years at the age of 34. So a player aged 27 could have 5 to 6 years left at their peak. Furthermore you have to ask why at the age of 27 or 28 would a player be available on a free transfer? Either they're not good enough, have a history of injuries (hence shortening their career) or are looking for a big pay out because they know they can negotiate a large signing bonus and salary. What we'd save on a transfer fee we'd lose on the bonus and salary not to mention what effect this huge salary would have on the wage structure and the rest of the players. 2. What is so magical about players aged 29? As I've already said players are playing at their peak much longer than they used to. And I assume you don't include goalkeepers in this because it is accepted they don't reach their peak until they are 28/29 and can play at the top level well into their 30s. If we had this strategy when Wilf signed his last contract he'd be about to leave on a free transfer - I know you don't rate him but how pissed off would you, the rest of the fan base and the board be if he just left now for nothing? Or as you suggest 18 months ago we'd have "offloaded" him for, what, £50m? Do you seriously think we'd be in the Premier League now if we had done that? And who would we have have replaced him with and could you guarantee this player would have been a success? 3. See my point above about Wilf and his contract. What you suggest is we never let anyone's contract run above 29 so when they are 27/28 - probably at their peak and performing for us, we offload them when they could still perform for us for the next 4-5 years. This is nonsense. Last year it was estimated we made £116m in prize money and TV revenue from being in the Premier League, not counting commercial revenue and gate receipts (of which there were none). Would you seriously gamble £116m by selling our best player at the time because he was 27 and hoping to find a ready made replacement? 4. And here is the fundamental flaw with what you suggest. Your whole argument seems to be based upon the premise that we can find replacement younger players that will almost immediately perform at the level of the players they are replacing. I know what you will say - look at Olise and Eze. On the face of it, and based on what we have seen so far, we have been INCREDIBLY lucky with Olise and Eze, but that's not always the case. Example: Max Meyer, who at the time we signed him was one of the brightest young talents in German football. He wasn't up to playing in the Premier League (although I would argue that might have been Hodgsons tactics, I do wonder whether Meyer would have played better under Vieira). In summary our transfer strategy needs to consider the players we have now, the players available in the market and our academy that can fill that role in the system we are playing, the age of those players, their value to us and to the market, our transfer budget and the wage structure, not to mention the social dynamics of the dressing room (have you not played Football Manager?) It's not simply a case of whether the player is an asset we can sell later for a profit. Excellent argument, stated very articulately.
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Badger11 Beckenham 08 Jan 22 9.09pm | |
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We went up via the play offs some managers have complained that this route impacts their transfer strategy as they are starting later than the other promoted clubs. We didn't spend wisely that first season. All newly promoted clubs face the hurdle that the selling club know there is a bit of desperation to get players in. The promoted club also has to persuade the incoming players that they are not going straight back down. It has taken us quite a few years and yes we have made mistakes in the transfer market but when you compare our spend and our mistakes to say Brighton it's not that bad. We are now dare I say it in a good position where we have a big name manager a fairly young squad and we seem to be heading for mid table mediocrity. So hopefully this means that we have moved on from the Ian Holloway (any player with a pulse will do) to only signing players that we think will fit and we can afford. All in all not too shabby.
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Bearcage Welling 09 Jan 22 1.05am | |
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The club needs to have a flexible approach to recruitment, always looking to strengthen the squad (whilst complying with FFP), and we should look to reap the value of investments in players on the pitch not on transfer profits.
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Lanzo-Ad Lanzarote 09 Jan 22 8.14am | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
We went up via the play offs some managers have complained that this route impacts their transfer strategy as they are starting later than the other promoted clubs. We didn't spend wisely that first season. All newly promoted clubs face the hurdle that the selling club know there is a bit of desperation to get players in. The promoted club also has to persuade the incoming players that they are not going straight back down. It has taken us quite a few years and yes we have made mistakes in the transfer market but when you compare our spend and our mistakes to say Brighton it's not that bad. We are now dare I say it in a good position where we have a big name manager a fairly young squad and we seem to be heading for mid table mediocrity. So hopefully this means that we have moved on from the Ian Holloway (any player with a pulse will do) to only signing players that we think will fit and we can afford. All in all not too shabby. Yes, i think for the first time we can look forward with a certain amount of confidence, excellent signings, superb academy work, but i disagree with your Brighton statement, them and Southampton similar clubs have + figures for their last five years not -72m, if we could get some money in for Wilf, Benteke and Luka before their contracts expire it would be better
“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn |
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Bearcage Welling 09 Jan 22 8.54am | |
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Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad
Yes, i think for the first time we can look forward with a certain amount of confidence, excellent signings, superb academy work, but i disagree with your Brighton statement, them and Southampton similar clubs have + figures for their last five years not -72m, if we could get some money in for Wilf, Benteke and Luka before their contracts expire it would be better If we sold these players would we get enough money for each to replace them with players of equal or better quality? If not we weaken our squad, whilst strengthening the squad of one of our opponents (assuming that’s where they go). The question is always what does losing this player do to our squad, and does the income gained (transfer funds and reduction of wage bill) allow us to compensate for that loss (but replacements. Unless just selling to raise funds (net transfer budget) and not worried about improving, but if that’s the case we should sell our younger players, we would get more money for them?).
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Omph Liverpool 09 Jan 22 8.57am | |
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Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad
Yes, i think for the first time we can look forward with a certain amount of confidence, excellent signings, superb academy work, but i disagree with your Brighton statement, them and Southampton similar clubs have + figures for their last five years not -72m, if we could get some money in for Wilf, Benteke and Luka before their contracts expire it would be better Brighton transfers over past 5 seasons. 2021 = plus 6 Where are you getting your figures from? Their transfer policy has produced only two sales in the last 5 seasons of any note (White very similar to AWB windfall and Knockaert). You seem to be mysteriously ill-informed. Just look at these types who all went on frees last season and then look up what they cost and how much value Brighton got from them. Propper In case you're too lazy to look this up - these players cost I believe 60 million and put in 240 outfield appearances. Look at the players released by Palace last time out Dann Townsend Cahill Hennessey McCarthy PvA Sakho Wickham and the figures are around 67 mill spent for 660 appearances. Fair investment imo - not least as Sakho skews the spend by being by some distance the most expensive - being with Tekkers the exception to the frugal spend policy on established pros.
Edited by Omph (09 Jan 2022 9.17am)
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Dubai Eagle 09 Jan 22 10.25am | |
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Nicely put - Bear Cage - I will be interested to see how long we can hold on to Olise, Eze, Mitchell & Guehi - especially if someone comes knocking offering silly money. Originally posted by Bearcage
The club needs to have a flexible approach to recruitment, always looking to strengthen the squad (whilst complying with FFP), and we should look to reap the value of investments in players on the pitch not on transfer profits.
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Lanzo-Ad Lanzarote 09 Jan 22 10.57am | |
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Originally posted by Bearcage
If we sold these players would we get enough money for each to replace them with players of equal or better quality? If not we weaken our squad, whilst strengthening the squad of one of our opponents (assuming that’s where they go). The question is always what does losing this player do to our squad, and does the income gained (transfer funds and reduction of wage bill) allow us to compensate for that loss (but replacements. Unless just selling to raise funds (net transfer budget) and not worried about improving, but if that’s the case we should sell our younger players, we would get more money for them?). i dont think them three replacements would be missed much anyway, so 25m for the lot would be more useful.
“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn |
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Canterbury Palace Whitstable 09 Jan 22 10.58am | |
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I've said it for years in terms of us potentially selling Zaha but I really feel like following the Leicester model of flogging one key players per season for loads of money and trying to reinvest it in several youngsters with potential is our only sustainable way forward as a club. The big two concerns were whether we'd cope without Wilf and whether we had the transfer nous to invest the funds wisely but I think our summer transfer window, surely the best in the history of the club, has rested my mind on both doubts. On current form I'm not 100% sure Zaha is even in our best XI but even if that's nonsense, we certainly have the players to cope without him now. In terms of our summer business, Guehi (£21m), Andersen (£16m), Edouard (£15m), Olise (£8m) and Hughes (£6m) have all proven to be bargains since joining and I can't imagine one hasn't increased in value. You get the impression that Guehi and and Olise, in particular, could eventually depart for a massive profit. With this transfer model and the integration of youngsters that our new academy will hopefully allow us in seasons to come, the future could be very bright.
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold... |
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Lanzo-Ad Lanzarote 09 Jan 22 11.02am | |
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Originally posted by Omph
Brighton transfers over past 5 seasons. 2021 = plus 6 Where are you getting your figures from? Their transfer policy has produced only two sales in the last 5 seasons of any note (White very similar to AWB windfall and Knockaert). You seem to be mysteriously ill-informed. Just look at these types who all went on frees last season and then look up what they cost and how much value Brighton got from them. Propper In case you're too lazy to look this up - these players cost I believe 60 million and put in 240 outfield appearances. Look at the players released by Palace last time out Dann Townsend Cahill Hennessey McCarthy PvA Sakho Wickham and the figures are around 67 mill spent for 660 appearances. Fair investment imo - not least as Sakho skews the spend by being by some distance the most expensive - being with Tekkers the exception to the frugal spend policy on established pros.
Edited by Omph (09 Jan 2022 9.17am) Before the recent transfers Brighton and Southamptons squad value were about 150m more than us, we had the lowest in the league 78m, source comes from Transfermkt
“That’s a joke son, I say, that’s a joke.” “Nice boy, but he’s sharp as a throw pillow.” “He’s so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent” “ “Son… I say, son, some people are so narrow minded they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”__ Forhorn Leghorn |
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NEILLO Shoreham-by-Sea 09 Jan 22 11.06am | |
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Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad
i dont think them three replacements would be missed much anyway, so 25m for the lot would be more useful. Your main problem is having an agenda against certain players that then inform most of your posts.
Old, Ungifted and White |
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Omph Liverpool 09 Jan 22 11.12am | |
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Originally posted by Dubai Eagle
Nicely put - Bear Cage - I will be interested to see how long we can hold on to Olise, Eze, Mitchell & Guehi - especially if someone comes knocking offering silly money. Interesting point on degree and circs. You're quite right that we will always be a selling club - even Leicester are after all. Serendipity perhaps but we appear to have timed our buying spree ideally this season with the market in the doldrums with COVID finances - it was a great time to be buying and quite the wrong time to be selling unless you had Ben White and a manic Arsenal board after your prime asset. Arguably we have lost out on a Zaha windfall with his market value nothing where it was previously but as you point out Olise Eze Guehi are all very marketable "commodities" potentially. I rather fancy that the 4th name on the list is not Mitchell but Edouard should he continue on his current trajectory. One point I'd add is that we are now perhaps edging closer to territory where sales become a greater threat. Part of this is driven by buying "higher risk higher reward" players such as those named as they are much more likely to attract big 6 suitors than the more journeymen types we have previously bought where the pool of suitors was much smaller. The other part is that all these players are on significantly lower salaries. Players move from ambition but also - quite naturally given the brevity of their career - for pay packets.
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