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Stirlingsays 28 Nov 21 8.57am
Originally posted by georgenorman Orwell fought in the P.O.U.M brigades, Trotskyist communists who were against Stalin (Trotsky disavowed them!) I think if he'd survived the pick he might have reconsidered the disavowal. Not that Trotsky was much better than Stalin....he was the military instrument used in Lenin's betrayal of the many useful idiots who believed the red's lies and helped them to power.....god knows who many were on those death lists, friend and foe alike. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Nov 2021 8.57am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 Nov 21 8.57am

Originally posted by georgenorman

Orwell fought in the P.O.U.M brigades, Trotskyist communists who were against Stalin (Trotsky disavowed them!)

I think if he'd survived the pick he might have reconsidered the disavowal.

Not that Trotsky was much better than Stalin....he was the military instrument used in Lenin's betrayal of the many useful idiots who believed the red's lies and helped them to power.....god knows who many were on those death lists, friend and foe alike.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Nov 2021 8.57am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 28 Nov 21 9.14am
Today Orwell like Attlee would no doubt be considered traitors to the socialist cause by a large part of the Labour Party. By the way fun fact he called the book 1984 because it was published in 1948 geddit! One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 28 Nov 21 9.14am

Today Orwell like Attlee would no doubt be considered traitors to the socialist cause by a large part of the Labour Party.

By the way fun fact he called the book 1984 because it was published in 1948 geddit!

One more point

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georgenorman 28 Nov 21 9.57am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I think if he'd survived the pick he might have reconsidered the disavowal. Not that Trotsky was much better than Stalin....he was the military instrument used in Lenin's betrayal of the many useful idiots who believed the red's lies and helped them to power.....god knows who many were on those death lists, friend and foe alike. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Nov 2021 8.57am) I agree that Trotsky was not much better than Stalin. Orwell attached himself to the POUM organisation largely because it had affiliations to the Independent Labour Party (ILP) in Britain to which Orwell later became a member, and he had a letter of introduction to John McNair an ILP/POUM organiser in Spain. POUM (Partido Obrero de Unification Marxist – the United Marxist Workers’ Party) was a hotchpotch of anti-Stalin communists, anarchists, socialists and miscellaneous anti-fascists. The Stalinist communists just branded the entire organisation as Trotskyites. You have to read Orwell’s ‘Homage to Catalonia’ to get some idea of the complexity and motives of the various factions involved in the Spanish civil war.
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georgenorman

28 Nov 21 9.57am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think if he'd survived the pick he might have reconsidered the disavowal.

Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Nov 2021 8.57am)

I agree that Trotsky was not much better than Stalin. Orwell attached himself to the POUM organisation largely because it had affiliations to the Independent Labour Party (ILP) in Britain to which Orwell later became a member, and he had a letter of introduction to John McNair an ILP/POUM organiser in Spain. POUM (Partido Obrero de Unification Marxist – the United Marxist Workers’ Party) was a hotchpotch of anti-Stalin communists, anarchists, socialists and miscellaneous anti-fascists. The Stalinist communists just branded the entire organisation as Trotskyites. You have to read Orwell’s ‘Homage to Catalonia’ to get some idea of the complexity and motives of the various factions involved in the Spanish civil war.

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Badger11 Beckenham 28 Nov 21 10.18am
Originally posted by georgenorman I agree that Trotsky was not much better than Stalin. Orwell attached himself to the POUM organisation largely because it had affiliations to the Independent Labour Party (ILP) in Britain to which Orwell later became a member, and he had a letter of introduction to John McNair an ILP/POUM organiser in Spain. POUM (Partido Obrero de Unification Marxist – the United Marxist Workers’ Party) was a hotchpotch of anti-Stalin communists, anarchists, socialists and miscellaneous anti-fascists. The Stalinist communists just branded the entire organisation as Trotskyites. You have to read Orwell’s ‘Homage to Catalonia’ to get some idea of the complexity and motives of the various factions involved in the Spanish civil war. This is where Orwell got the idea of the of the shifting allegiances between the 3 superpowers who rule the world and the various people attached to them. One moment they are the hated enemy next they are an ally. In Spain the commies were more interested in factional fighting than in fighting the Franco forces. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 28 Nov 21 10.18am

Originally posted by georgenorman

I agree that Trotsky was not much better than Stalin. Orwell attached himself to the POUM organisation largely because it had affiliations to the Independent Labour Party (ILP) in Britain to which Orwell later became a member, and he had a letter of introduction to John McNair an ILP/POUM organiser in Spain. POUM (Partido Obrero de Unification Marxist – the United Marxist Workers’ Party) was a hotchpotch of anti-Stalin communists, anarchists, socialists and miscellaneous anti-fascists. The Stalinist communists just branded the entire organisation as Trotskyites. You have to read Orwell’s ‘Homage to Catalonia’ to get some idea of the complexity and motives of the various factions involved in the Spanish civil war.

This is where Orwell got the idea of the of the shifting allegiances between the 3 superpowers who rule the world and the various people attached to them. One moment they are the hated enemy next they are an ally.

In Spain the commies were more interested in factional fighting than in fighting the Franco forces.

One more point

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georgenorman 28 Nov 21 10.24am
Originally posted by Badger11 This is where Orwell got the idea of the of the shifting allegiances between the 3 superpowers who rule the world and the various people attached to them. One moment they are the hated enemy next they are an ally. In Spain the commies were more interested in factional fighting than in fighting the Franco forces. Yes, along with the obvious parallels of the Nazi-Soviet pact and then America and Britian becomming allies with Stalin.
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georgenorman

28 Nov 21 10.24am

Originally posted by Badger11

In Spain the commies were more interested in factional fighting than in fighting the Franco forces.

Yes, along with the obvious parallels of the Nazi-Soviet pact and then America and Britian becomming allies with Stalin.

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 28 Nov 21 10.35am
Populace control was the ultimate aspiration. When person conspired against person perpetuated by fear or compliance with the governing system. That's what is disappoints me with the current political scene. There is no viable alternative to Government at the moment, and we are seeing all sorts of restrictions put in place,...because they can. Ignorance is strength Freedom is slavery War is Peace War is Peace was the mind-opener for me on a perspective of society. Today the UK is at war with the EU over trade, France over immigration, the perpetual terror threats. And the pointless discussions of the electorate won't change the System. And neither will an election. When I see Socialist neighbours speaking with pride about how their children/grand children are within the Private Education system, and earning £££, then you wonder what politics is for. Socialism is seemingly gone, for all its potential/theoretical virtues. The Proles are left to argue over political parties, none of which has the electorate as their key concern, except keeping them in power. Yes, we are free to speak. But in many cases the audience is dead. Just turn on your telescreen. I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 28 Nov 21 10.35am

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Populace control was the ultimate aspiration. When person conspired against person perpetuated by fear or compliance with the governing system.
That's what is disappoints me with the current political scene. There is no viable alternative to Government at the moment, and we are seeing all sorts of restrictions put in place,...because they can.

Ignorance is strength
Freedom is slavery
War is Peace

War is Peace was the mind-opener for me on a perspective of society. Today the UK is at war with the EU over trade, France over immigration, the perpetual terror threats.

And the pointless discussions of the electorate won't change the System. And neither will an election.

When I see Socialist neighbours speaking with pride about how their children/grand children are within the Private Education system, and earning £££, then you wonder what politics is for.

Socialism is seemingly gone, for all its potential/theoretical virtues.
The Proles are left to argue over political parties, none of which has the electorate as their key concern, except keeping them in power.

Yes, we are free to speak. But in many cases the audience is dead. Just turn on your telescreen.

I disengage, I turn the page.

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Stirlingsays 28 Nov 21 12.13pm
Originally posted by georgenorman I agree that Trotsky was not much better than Stalin. Orwell attached himself to the POUM organisation largely because it had affiliations to the Independent Labour Party (ILP) in Britain to which Orwell later became a member, and he had a letter of introduction to John McNair an ILP/POUM organiser in Spain. POUM (Partido Obrero de Unification Marxist – the United Marxist Workers’ Party) was a hotchpotch of anti-Stalin communists, anarchists, socialists and miscellaneous anti-fascists. The Stalinist communists just branded the entire organisation as Trotskyites. You have to read Orwell’s ‘Homage to Catalonia’ to get some idea of the complexity and motives of the various factions involved in the Spanish civil war. Educational, I tip my hat George. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 Nov 21 12.13pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

Educational, I tip my hat George.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 28 Nov 21 12.49pm
Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly Populace control was the ultimate aspiration. When person conspired against person perpetuated by fear or compliance with the governing system. That's what is disappoints me with the current political scene. There is no viable alternative to Government at the moment, and we are seeing all sorts of restrictions put in place,...because they can. Ignorance is strength Freedom is slavery War is Peace War is Peace was the mind-opener for me on a perspective of society. Today the UK is at war with the EU over trade, France over immigration, the perpetual terror threats. And the pointless discussions of the electorate won't change the System. And neither will an election. When I see Socialist neighbours speaking with pride about how their children/grand children are within the Private Education system, and earning £££, then you wonder what politics is for. Socialism is seemingly gone, for all its potential/theoretical virtues. The Proles are left to argue over political parties, none of which has the electorate as their key concern, except keeping them in power. Yes, we are free to speak. But in many cases the audience is dead. Just turn on your telescreen. Excellent post. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 Nov 21 12.49pm

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

Ignorance is strength
Freedom is slavery
War is Peace

War is Peace was the mind-opener for me on a perspective of society. Today the UK is at war with the EU over trade, France over immigration, the perpetual terror threats.

And the pointless discussions of the electorate won't change the System. And neither will an election.

When I see Socialist neighbours speaking with pride about how their children/grand children are within the Private Education system, and earning £££, then you wonder what politics is for.

Yes, we are free to speak. But in many cases the audience is dead. Just turn on your telescreen.

Excellent post.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 28 Nov 21 1.22pm
And a few similarities on HOL, especially with the 'new' Politics forum. Reminds me of The Hate Hour in 1984. Where people are so entrenched in their (political) positions, just the mention of the enemy name is enough to turn some people to hysteria, shouting at their telescreens and pledging allegiance to The Party. There is a theoretical gene in the human gene, named The Selfish Gene. It theorises that the organism will do whatever it takes to ensure its survival, even if it means destroying its habitat and also destroying other organisms from the same species. It's quite saddening when people put behaviour down to genes, or some other excuse. Humans are capable of far better. But most choose not to. I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly

in a hidey-hole 28 Nov 21 1.22pm

And a few similarities on HOL, especially with the 'new' Politics forum.
Reminds me of The Hate Hour in 1984. Where people are so entrenched in their (political) positions, just the mention of the enemy name is enough to turn some people to hysteria, shouting at their telescreens and pledging allegiance to The Party.

There is a theoretical gene in the human gene, named The Selfish Gene. It theorises that the organism will do whatever it takes to ensure its survival, even if it means destroying its habitat and also destroying other organisms from the same species.

It's quite saddening when people put behaviour down to genes, or some other excuse. Humans are capable of far better. But most choose not to.

I disengage, I turn the page.

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Stirlingsays 28 Nov 21 1.58pm
Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly And a few similarities on HOL, especially with the 'new' Politics forum. Reminds me of The Hate Hour in 1984. Where people are so entrenched in their (political) positions, just the mention of the enemy name is enough to turn some people to hysteria, shouting at their telescreens and pledging allegiance to The Party. There is a theoretical gene in the human gene, named The Selfish Gene. It theorises that the organism will do whatever it takes to ensure its survival, even if it means destroying its habitat and also destroying other organisms from the same species. It's quite saddening when people put behaviour down to genes, or some other excuse. Humans are capable of far better. But most choose not to. I don't think they are. And personally I put it down to genes because there is nothing else....Culture is environment and while it can affect genes (some more than others) the extent of its affect on genes will mostly be minor...when it comes to behaviour. The bright child will be bright even given a dull environment...just not as bright as they could have been....and the dull child will never be bright even if Einstein had taught them exclusively.....though obviously it would benefit them. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

28 Nov 21 1.58pm

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

It's quite saddening when people put behaviour down to genes, or some other excuse. Humans are capable of far better. But most choose not to.

I don't think they are.

And personally I put it down to genes because there is nothing else....Culture is environment and while it can affect genes (some more than others) the extent of its affect on genes will mostly be minor...when it comes to behaviour.

The bright child will be bright even given a dull environment...just not as bright as they could have been....and the dull child will never be bright even if Einstein had taught them exclusively.....though obviously it would benefit them.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 28 Nov 21 2.49pm
Originally posted by georgenorman Yes, along with the obvious parallels of the Nazi-Soviet pact and then America and Britian becomming allies with Stalin. Indeed excellent point. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 28 Nov 21 2.49pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

Yes, along with the obvious parallels of the Nazi-Soviet pact and then America and Britian becomming allies with Stalin.

Indeed excellent point.

One more point

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steeleye20 Croydon 28 Nov 21 3.04pm
The 'elective dictatorship' now upon us according to Kenneth Clarke, and first by Lord Hailsham in 1961, each occurring in the third term of a tory government. In the present case with a very large majority. So it may be said that the elective dictatorship was voted for. Obviously our system is weak unrepresentative and supports the establishment, monarchy the very rich etc. They are not going to give it up, only entrench their rule more. .
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steeleye20

Croydon 28 Nov 21 3.04pm

The 'elective dictatorship' now upon us according to Kenneth Clarke, and first by Lord Hailsham in 1961, each occurring in the third term of a tory government.

In the present case with a very large majority.

So it may be said that the elective dictatorship was voted for.

Obviously our system is weak unrepresentative and supports the establishment, monarchy the very rich etc.

They are not going to give it up, only entrench their rule more.

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