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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 28 Apr 20 1.35pm | |
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Originally posted by ex hibitionist
the dragon bit's a myth I grant you, as for the man himself the Catholic Church canonises human beings not myths, and I'm fine with the right type of nationalism when it's about the actual population, like the way Australians are patriotic, and not some propagandising set of icons or nostalgia for Empire, actually I do prefer countires like Belgium, Denmark, Portugal or Canada who are proud of their countries but don't think they're a race apart like some places ... don't Rangers fans say 'We are the People' - French, Americans, Russians, Poles, Brits can have this superior pride, while other nationalities are less afflicted - I've got Czech heritage - Velvet Revolution and Divorce, one death in all that commotion and they reckon that was a set up, compare that to what used to be Yugoslavia, I prefer my nationalism lite. I'm not quite sure why you put Belgium, Denmark or Portugal. Portugal's Empire purposefully killed tens of millions of people and they are fiercely nationalist - particularly when it comes to Spain. The Nationalism of the Balkan states is interesting but you have perhaps leaped too far. There was a Yugoslavian nationalism under Tito, and of course, an authoritarian state. That was what it took to keep down the ethnic violence within the state. I'm not sure you will be advocating for that. You put Britain - is the nationalism not more English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish etc.? Ask any Scot or Welshman about English people and what answer do you think you will get? It always seems fine to harp on about being Scottish or Welsh but apparently not ok to be proud about being English. I wonder if the pattern is - if your country was weak and dominated by others then your patriotism is fine; if your country achieved things by dominating other countries let's now be ashamed. Which is not helping anyone.
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Stirlingsays 28 Apr 20 4.05pm | |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
I'm not quite sure why you put Belgium, Denmark or Portugal. Portugal's Empire purposefully killed tens of millions of people and they are fiercely nationalist - particularly when it comes to Spain. The Nationalism of the Balkan states is interesting but you have perhaps leaped too far. There was a Yugoslavian nationalism under Tito, and of course, an authoritarian state. That was what it took to keep down the ethnic violence within the state. I'm not sure you will be advocating for that. You put Britain - is the nationalism not more English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish etc.? Ask any Scot or Welshman about English people and what answer do you think you will get? It always seems fine to harp on about being Scottish or Welsh but apparently not ok to be proud about being English. I wonder if the pattern is - if your country was weak and dominated by others then your patriotism is fine; if your country achieved things by dominating other countries let's now be ashamed. Which is not helping anyone.
It's all a bit Rik out of the Young Ones. I mean, St Andrew wasn't Scottish and St Patrick wasn't Irish......But apparently it's important for myths to be historically accurate because people might find community in them and relate to the principles in the stories....but we know what it is all about. They only want you to recognise the myths they approve of.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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YT Oxford 28 Apr 20 4.07pm | |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
I'm not quite sure why you put Belgium, Denmark or Portugal. Portugal's Empire purposefully killed tens of millions of people and they are fiercely nationalist - particularly when it comes to Spain. The Nationalism of the Balkan states is interesting but you have perhaps leaped too far. There was a Yugoslavian nationalism under Tito, and of course, an authoritarian state. That was what it took to keep down the ethnic violence within the state. I'm not sure you will be advocating for that. You put Britain - is the nationalism not more English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish etc.? Ask any Scot or Welshman about English people and what answer do you think you will get? It always seems fine to harp on about being Scottish or Welsh but apparently not ok to be proud about being English. I wonder if the pattern is - if your country was weak and dominated by others then your patriotism is fine; if your country achieved things by dominating other countries let's now be ashamed. Which is not helping anyone. A good and interesting post. Just to pick up on one detail...Portugal killed TENS of millions. Is that right?
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Badger11 Beckenham 28 Apr 20 4.11pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It's all a bit Rik out of the Young Ones. I mean, St Andrew wasn't Scottish and St Patrick wasn't Irish......But apparently it's important for myths to be historically accurate because people might find community in them and relate to the principles in the stories....but we know what's it all about. They only like you to believe in the myths they approve of. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 Apr 2020 4.05pm) Hence the pilgrim fathers was chosen to represent the founding of America yet they were not the first settlers nor did they do much in the way of creating a country. However they did not keep slaves and were fairly benign and so were acceptable, and a legend is born. The real founding fathers of America were those involved in the slave trade or as Malcom X put it: "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us."
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Teddy Eagle 28 Apr 20 4.28pm | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Hence the pilgrim fathers was chosen to represent the founding of America yet they were not the first settlers nor did they do much in the way of creating a country. However they did not keep slaves and were fairly benign and so were acceptable, and a legend is born. The real founding fathers of America were those involved in the slave trade or as Malcom X put it: "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us." There is also the theory that they didn’t leave in search of freedom but because they thought things had got too lax in England so wanted to go somewhere where they could practice their religious intolerance.
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Stirlingsays 28 Apr 20 4.45pm | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Hence the pilgrim fathers was chosen to represent the founding of America yet they were not the first settlers nor did they do much in the way of creating a country. However they did not keep slaves and were fairly benign and so were acceptable, and a legend is born. The real founding fathers of America were those involved in the slave trade or as Malcom X put it: "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us." If there's one thing I can agree with Malcolm X on....well to be fair to him it's more than one.....but one thing I can certainly agree with him on is the fervent wish that none of it had ever happened. Myths reveal more about the community who celebrate them than they do about what actually happened as there are usually two or more sides to every story anyway.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 28 Apr 20 5.06pm | |
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Originally posted by YT
A good and interesting post. Just to pick up on one detail...Portugal killed TENS of millions. Is that right? Ask the Native South Americans. People always blame Spain, yet Portugal got their spoils from the Pope.
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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 28 Apr 20 5.18pm | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Hence the pilgrim fathers was chosen to represent the founding of America yet they were not the first settlers nor did they do much in the way of creating a country. However they did not keep slaves and were fairly benign and so were acceptable, and a legend is born. The real founding fathers of America were those involved in the slave trade or as Malcom X put it: "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us." Obviously well acquainted with Cole Porter lyrics, then.
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YT Oxford 28 Apr 20 5.55pm | |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
Ask the Native South Americans. People always blame Spain, yet Portugal got their spoils from the Pope. I'm aware of the Portuguese involvement; it was the number I was seeking to check. "Tens of millions" you said therefore at least 20 million people killed, dwarfing the Holocaust by some margin.
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