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 Kermit8  Hevon 12 Nov 17 2.30pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Typical left wing strawman response. Islamic reformers have a lot of criticism for your stance here. You should listen to them.
Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Nov 2017 11.41am) Er...He pretty much says exactly what I have written within the first 3 mins and that smoking analogy. Try again.
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Stirlingsays  12 Nov 17 2.53pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Er...He pretty much says exactly what I have written within the first 3 mins and that smoking analogy. Try again. You don't even try to address the issues. There's no trying from me: just commentary. Your approach and the non ideas on how we proceed is how the authorities are approaching this horrible situation so essentially what happens as we go forward is down to that approach. This argument was lost a long time ago. We are ruled by cowards and liars who pass the buck onto the next set of cowards and liars. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Nov 2017 2.58pm)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 12 Nov 17 3.09pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
You don't even try to address the issues. There's no trying from me: just commentary. Your approach and the non ideas on how we proceed is how the authorities are approaching this horrible situation so essentially what happens as we go forward is down to that approach. This argument was lost a long time ago. We are ruled by cowards and liars who pass the buck onto the next set of cowards and liars. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Nov 2017 2.58pm) Re:Reform The theocracy of Islam is a problem. I agree with him 100%. Any religion that dominates to such an extent needs winding down. No arguments. But....look at Islam as a very tall tree with 100 - 200 branches, maybe more, and each different from the next. How do you reform that as a whole? How do you go about changing peasant muslims living in a corner of China who have lived the same way for centuries in tandem with changing shia muslims in Glasgow who were born in Britain as well as influencing benign Sunni muslims in Brazil, etc, etc. Now, if it were down to me I would be focusing on that one branch from which IS and Al Qaeda and Al-Shaba and Boko Haram emanate from...
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| Stirlingsays 12 Nov 17 3.21pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Re:Reform The theocracy of Islam is a problem. I agree with him 100%. Any religion that dominates to such an extent needs winding down. No arguments. But....look at Islam as a very tall tree with 100 - 200 branches, maybe more, and each different from the next. How do you reform that as a whole? How do you go about changing peasant muslims living in a corner of China who have lived the same way for centuries in tandem with changing shia muslims in Glasgow who were born in Britain as well as influencing benign Sunni muslims in Brazil, etc, etc. Now, if it were down to me I would be focusing on that one branch from which IS and Al Qaeda and Al-Shaba and Boko Haram emanate from... We can't take responsibility for Islam aboard. We can only reform Islam here. We need to look at which types of Muslims are coming in.....for example we only want secularists.. For example, take Kurds and other secular or western branches and stop taking from socially conservative pakistan and Bangladesh.....unless we can know they are secularists and atheists.....those guys are probably worthy of asylum anyway. I'd put the reformers in charge of internal policy and come to some agreement on how we handled religious Islamic immigration. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Nov 2017 3.22pm)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 12 Nov 17 3.29pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
We can't take responsibility for Islam aboard. We can only reform Islam here. We need to look at which types of Muslims are coming in.....for example we only want secularists.. For example, take Kurds and other secular or western branches and stop taking from socially conservative pakistan and Bangladesh.....unless we can know they are secularists and atheists.....those guys are probably worthy of asylum anyway. I'd put the reformers in charge of internal policy and come to some agreement on how we handled religious Islamic immigration. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Nov 2017 3.22pm) Eh? After many months of 'reform' lobbying on here after all that you meant only in the UK? Is that what that Nawaz chap advocates too? In that case, I am more of a pro-reformist than you are. The snake's head is what we should be after and that certainly is abroad. It's wishy-washy non-action that you promote really and won't stop the killer extremists maiming, murdering and their social media propaganda.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Nov 17 3.42pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Eh? After many months of 'reform' lobbying on here after all that you meant only in the UK? Is that what that Nawaz chap advocates too? In that case, I am more of a pro-reformist than you are. The snake's head is what we should be after and that certainly is abroad. It's wishy-washy non-action that you promote really and won't stop the killer extremists maiming, murdering and their social media propaganda. I thought I was clear.....I'm not really sure how we would go about reforming Islam aboard....or that we have that right. Sure, I'd recommend western countries do the same but my children aren't growing up there....up to them. Nawaz is about Islam in the west. I'm not really sure deporting radicals and stripping them of nationality is that wishy washy, selective immigration....plus closing down mosques that wouldn't cooperate with reformers. As for the reforming of Islamic radicals aboard.....like the link on 'why we fight you, why we hate you'.....it's pretty plain....there isn't a middle way. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Nov 2017 3.43pm)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 12 Nov 17 4.08pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I thought I was clear.....I'm not really sure how we would go about reforming Islam aboard....or that we have that right. Sure, I'd recommend western countries do the same but my children aren't growing up there....up to them. Nawaz is about Islam in the west. I'm not really sure deporting radicals and stripping them of nationality is that wishy washy, selective immigration....plus closing down mosques that wouldn't cooperate with reformers. As for the reforming of Islamic radicals aboard.....like the link on 'why we fight you, why we hate you'.....it's pretty plain....there isn't a middle way. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Nov 2017 3.43pm) With respect it is not a reformation your ideas but a battening down of the hatches in order to keep undesirables out. Now this is the kind of fella [Link] we really should be looking to and backing as he has actual power and within his hopes is proper reform which will trickle down and in a good way. Much more than an TalkRadio/LBC jock is able to actually achieve through intellectual discussion. Edited by Kermit8 (12 Nov 2017 4.09pm)
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ASCPFC  Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 12 Nov 17 4.13pm |
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If we arm everyone at least we could kill/wound the terrorists or attackers - that seems to be the US argument anyhow.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Nov 17 5.44pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
With respect it is not a reformation your ideas but a battening down of the hatches in order to keep undesirables out. Now this is the kind of fella [Link] we really should be looking to and backing as he has actual power and within his hopes is proper reform which will trickle down and in a good way. Much more than an TalkRadio/LBC jock is able to actually achieve through intellectual discussion. Edited by Kermit8 (12 Nov 2017 4.09pm) SA doesn't have much influence here at all. The main doctrines in the UK are from pakistan and Bangladesh. As for the crown prince....I'll await actions rather than rhetoric....especially as he's engaged with a proxy war with Iran and wants continued western backing if it gets difficult. Besides, IS and other radical Sunni groups attack his regime as well.
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| Kermit8 Hevon 12 Nov 17 6.24pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
SA doesn't have much influence here at all. The main doctrines in the UK are from pakistan and Bangladesh. As for the crown prince....I'll await actions rather than rhetoric....especially as he's engaged with a proxy war with Iran and wants continued western backing if it gets difficult. Besides, IS and other radical Sunni groups attack his regime as well. Saudi has had a massive influence on pakistani Sunni Islam since the 70's when the Sauds changed religious policy at home to a more extreme version which they were to propagate home and abroad to this day with their billions of petro-dollars. Many millions of pakistanis since the 70's have lived, worked and worshipped there and come under the spell of that now ultra-conservative Wahhabist ideology which some of them have then exported back to their homeland.
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PalazioVecchio  south pole 12 Nov 17 6.40pm |
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Originally posted by ASCPFC
If we arm everyone at least we could kill/wound the terrorists or attackers - that seems to be the US argument anyhow. after a terror atrocity, the media often name and identify the hometown of the perpetator, and even interview members of their family. Free airtime. Is this moral ? what message does it send to the next suicide bomber ?
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| Stirlingsays 12 Nov 17 6.44pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Saudi has had a massive influence on pakistani Sunni Islam since the 70's when the Sauds changed religious policy at home to a more extreme version which they were to propagate home and abroad to this day with their billions of petro-dollars. Many millions of pakistanis since the 70's have lived, worked and worshipped there and come under the spell of that now ultra-conservative Wahhabist ideology which some of them have then exported back to their homeland. A fair while back I linked to research on what Islamic doctrines here are mainly pushed via the mosques....can't remember their names now but while a significant number are socially conservative and problematical they aren't Wahhabist....though as you say they may have been influenced by it back home.
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