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PaddyMcPaddy 06 Nov 17 3.55pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 A fair few though would have had a disproportionate advantage in life from birth so commensurate with that they should be paying more. Plus, someone on £150k a year is not going to have to downgrade and miss much lifestyle wise if they are paying 40% rather than say 30%. The tax system should really strongly benefit the less well off and not endow the already wealthy with more dosh as your proposal would do. Why should it benefit the less well off? In theory yes they should be given help. Unfortunately most don't help themselves to get off the system of support or play the system just enough to keep hand outs and so on. I've plenty of family that do it so I know. What we shouldn't do is then over tax the high earners, where is the equality of that? If you do well we will tax you more. Thanks for that. You will end up with a mediocre society. You can say that they won't miss much lifestyle but why should they miss any? I am all for supporting under privileged people that true want to better themselves. Unfortunately we don't have a society to do that. Anyone that goes to school and tries hard, works to achieve can make and earn good money in this country. It really is a simple as that.
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PaddyMcPaddy

06 Nov 17 3.55pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

A fair few though would have had a disproportionate advantage in life from birth so commensurate with that they should be paying more. Plus, someone on £150k a year is not going to have to downgrade and miss much lifestyle wise if they are paying 40% rather than say 30%.

The tax system should really strongly benefit the less well off and not endow the already wealthy with more dosh as your proposal would do.

Why should it benefit the less well off? In theory yes they should be given help. Unfortunately most don't help themselves to get off the system of support or play the system just enough to keep hand outs and so on. I've plenty of family that do it so I know.

What we shouldn't do is then over tax the high earners, where is the equality of that? If you do well we will tax you more. Thanks for that. You will end up with a mediocre society.

You can say that they won't miss much lifestyle but why should they miss any?

I am all for supporting under privileged people that true want to better themselves. Unfortunately we don't have a society to do that. Anyone that goes to school and tries hard, works to achieve can make and earn good money in this country. It really is a simple as that.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Nov 17 4.16pm
Originally posted by PaddyMcPaddy Why should it benefit the less well off? In theory yes they should be given help. Unfortunately most don't help themselves to get off the system of support or play the system just enough to keep hand outs and so on. I've plenty of family that do it so I know. What we shouldn't do is then over tax the high earners, where is the equality of that? If you do well we will tax you more. Thanks for that. You will end up with a mediocre society. You can say that they won't miss much lifestyle but why should they miss any? I am all for supporting under privileged people that true want to better themselves. Unfortunately we don't have a society to do that. Anyone that goes to school and tries hard, works to achieve can make and earn good money in this country. It really is a simple as that. The great myth - Hard work only pays off for some - its bollocks. Smart working, and smart thinking pays off. But the world is full of hard working people who get f**ked in return. These days even a University Degree might see you stuck at 30k a year in an office and be considered lucky. Because you're trying to encourage the best out of the rest of those people. Plus its actually quite difficult to 'make the most of it and get yourself out of that situation' when the options are limited to being worse off (because you work more than sixteen hours at minimum wage and they cut off your benefits) or working part time minimum wage jobs. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Nov 17 4.16pm

Originally posted by PaddyMcPaddy

What we shouldn't do is then over tax the high earners, where is the equality of that? If you do well we will tax you more. Thanks for that. You will end up with a mediocre society.

You can say that they won't miss much lifestyle but why should they miss any?

I am all for supporting under privileged people that true want to better themselves. Unfortunately we don't have a society to do that. Anyone that goes to school and tries hard, works to achieve can make and earn good money in this country. It really is a simple as that.

The great myth - Hard work only pays off for some - its bollocks. Smart working, and smart thinking pays off. But the world is full of hard working people who get f**ked in return. These days even a University Degree might see you stuck at 30k a year in an office and be considered lucky.

Because you're trying to encourage the best out of the rest of those people. Plus its actually quite difficult to 'make the most of it and get yourself out of that situation' when the options are limited to being worse off (because you work more than sixteen hours at minimum wage and they cut off your benefits) or working part time minimum wage jobs.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Nov 17 4.19pm
Originally posted by npn Bound to be far more complex than we see, but I see nothing wrong with that principle. My objection is that Mr. Smith and his local coffee shop (making enough to keep heads above water) are likely to be far more viciously taxed than Costa Coffee (making millions), because they can't employ the same loopholes, which is just wrong. Yep, and Costa Coffee will use those same benefiting loopholes, to push Mr Smith out of business, and then buy up his business on the cheap, and Mr Smith then gets to work at Tesco stacking shelves on the night shift to try to pay off the debts he's racked up - with Mr Smith eventually leaving him, because he's never around. All the small corner store owners in the part of town I grew up in, ended up working at the Tesco's store that put them out of business. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Nov 17 4.19pm

Originally posted by npn

Bound to be far more complex than we see, but I see nothing wrong with that principle. My objection is that Mr. Smith and his local coffee shop (making enough to keep heads above water) are likely to be far more viciously taxed than Costa Coffee (making millions), because they can't employ the same loopholes, which is just wrong.

Yep, and Costa Coffee will use those same benefiting loopholes, to push Mr Smith out of business, and then buy up his business on the cheap, and Mr Smith then gets to work at Tesco stacking shelves on the night shift to try to pay off the debts he's racked up - with Mr Smith eventually leaving him, because he's never around.

All the small corner store owners in the part of town I grew up in, ended up working at the Tesco's store that put them out of business.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays 06 Nov 17 4.38pm
Originally posted by Mr Palaceman Personally, I think that the less government has to do with everyday life the better. In terms of tax law in this country, serious reform is needed. I would argue for a universal tax rate for everyone and EVERYONE pays it. The same for corporations, you trade here you pay the same as the rest, based on what you earn here. I'm not sure how practical that idea is, at the end if the day, we are governed by consent. I don't mind so much that the rich avoid tax but I do mind that it's one way for those who have and another way for those who have not. I disagree.......Perhaps in a system where there were enough jobs about that could provide a reasonable lifestyle for everyone this point would be arguable....though you run into problems with having enough money to provide for the weak, such as the elderly, disabled and the simple....what was it that Boris Johnson said? 16 percent 'of our species' have an IQ below 85 and only 2 percent have an IQ of 130 or more. I disagree with any tax idea that would, in effect, result in us going back to Victorian states of poverty. There simply doesn't exist a system where people born in council estates can work themselves into the middle classes in rates anymore than a trickle. Any number of practical blocks exist to stop that. The vast majority of people end their lives in the same social status they started in. This has very little to do with talent or ability and much more to do with life chances. Automation is and will adversely affect those who are poorer....though it is also coming for the white collar jobs as well. Tax systems that would widen inequality are only going to increase support for the pseudo communists we already have leading the left.....And essentially they will pursue polices that will result in the wealthy moving their money out and worsen life for the majority far more. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Nov 2017 4.45pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

06 Nov 17 4.38pm

Originally posted by Mr Palaceman

Personally, I think that the less government has to do with everyday life the better. In terms of tax law in this country, serious reform is needed.

I would argue for a universal tax rate for everyone and EVERYONE pays it. The same for corporations, you trade here you pay the same as the rest, based on what you earn here.

I'm not sure how practical that idea is, at the end if the day, we are governed by consent.

I don't mind so much that the rich avoid tax but I do mind that it's one way for those who have and another way for those who have not.

I disagree.......Perhaps in a system where there were enough jobs about that could provide a reasonable lifestyle for everyone this point would be arguable....though you run into problems with having enough money to provide for the weak, such as the elderly, disabled and the simple....what was it that Boris Johnson said? 16 percent 'of our species' have an IQ below 85 and only 2 percent have an IQ of 130 or more.

I disagree with any tax idea that would, in effect, result in us going back to Victorian states of poverty.

There simply doesn't exist a system where people born in council estates can work themselves into the middle classes in rates anymore than a trickle. Any number of practical blocks exist to stop that.

The vast majority of people end their lives in the same social status they started in. This has very little to do with talent or ability and much more to do with life chances.

Automation is and will adversely affect those who are poorer....though it is also coming for the white collar jobs as well.

Tax systems that would widen inequality are only going to increase support for the pseudo communists we already have leading the left.....And essentially they will pursue polices that will result in the wealthy moving their money out and worsen life for the majority far more.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Nov 2017 4.45pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 06 Nov 17 4.39pm
Originally posted by PaddyMcPaddy Why should it benefit the less well off? In theory yes they should be given help. Unfortunately most don't help themselves to get off the system of support or play the system just enough to keep hand outs and so on. I've plenty of family that do it so I know. What we shouldn't do is then over tax the high earners, where is the equality of that? If you do well we will tax you more. Thanks for that. You will end up with a mediocre society. You can say that they won't miss much lifestyle but why should they miss any? I am all for supporting under privileged people that true want to better themselves. Unfortunately we don't have a society to do that. Anyone that goes to school and tries hard, works to achieve can make and earn good money in this country. It really is a simple as that. Hardest working people I see every week are our local dustmen. Probably on £7 an hour. That's rotten. Those guys should be paying hardly any tax and the well-off can subsidise them by paying more. But no - some want them to be paying an equal 20-25% or similar with the already wealthy. Bollocks to that. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 06 Nov 17 4.39pm

Originally posted by PaddyMcPaddy

What we shouldn't do is then over tax the high earners, where is the equality of that? If you do well we will tax you more. Thanks for that. You will end up with a mediocre society.

You can say that they won't miss much lifestyle but why should they miss any?

Hardest working people I see every week are our local dustmen. Probably on £7 an hour. That's rotten. Those guys should be paying hardly any tax and the well-off can subsidise them by paying more. But no - some want them to be paying an equal 20-25% or similar with the already wealthy. Bollocks to that.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stuk Top half 06 Nov 17 4.46pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Hardest working people I see every week are our local dustmen. Probably on £7 an hour. That's rotten. Those guys should be paying hardly any tax and the well-off can subsidise them by paying more. But no - some want them to be paying an equal 20-25% or similar with the already wealthy. Bollocks to that. You are really living in a bubble then. They used to be hard working, now they will not even touch anything unless it's on wheels and can be picked up by a machine. They essentially need to walk from the cart to the bin and back and press a button. £7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 06 Nov 17 4.46pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Hardest working people I see every week are our local dustmen. Probably on £7 an hour. That's rotten. Those guys should be paying hardly any tax and the well-off can subsidise them by paying more. But no - some want them to be paying an equal 20-25% or similar with the already wealthy. Bollocks to that.

You are really living in a bubble then. They used to be hard working, now they will not even touch anything unless it's on wheels and can be picked up by a machine. They essentially need to walk from the cart to the bin and back and press a button.

£7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that.

Optimistic as ever

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Stirlingsays 06 Nov 17 4.46pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Yep, and Costa Coffee will use those same benefiting loopholes, to push Mr Smith out of business, and then buy up his business on the cheap, and Mr Smith then gets to work at Tesco stacking shelves on the night shift to try to pay off the debts he's racked up - with Mr Smith eventually leaving him, because he's never around. All the small corner store owners in the part of town I grew up in, ended up working at the Tesco's store that put them out of business. That is genuinely tragic. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

06 Nov 17 4.46pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

All the small corner store owners in the part of town I grew up in, ended up working at the Tesco's store that put them out of business.

That is genuinely tragic.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Kermit8 Hevon 06 Nov 17 4.55pm
Originally posted by Stuk You are really living in a bubble then. They used to be hard working, now they will not even touch anything unless it's on wheels and can be picked up by a machine. They essentially need to walk from the cart to the bin and back and press a button. £7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that. Here we go again... They work in all weathers down our way - just in the warm in yours probably - they lug heavy black bins for hours, full of stinking crap, and then have three recycling boxes to sort, for each home, in as quickly as possible to free up waiting traffic, five days a week. Like to see you doing physically demanding labour at 6am at zero temperatures. You wouldn't last two shifts. Maybe the bin fairy empties yours? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 06 Nov 17 4.55pm

Originally posted by Stuk

£7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that.

Here we go again... They work in all weathers down our way - just in the warm in yours probably - they lug heavy black bins for hours, full of stinking crap, and then have three recycling boxes to sort, for each home, in as quickly as possible to free up waiting traffic, five days a week.

Like to see you doing physically demanding labour at 6am at zero temperatures. You wouldn't last two shifts.

Maybe the bin fairy empties yours?

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 06 Nov 17 4.59pm
Originally posted by Stuk You are really living in a bubble then. They used to be hard working, now they will not even touch anything unless it's on wheels and can be picked up by a machine. They essentially need to walk from the cart to the bin and back and press a button. £7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that. Who is living in a bubble? You may need your glasses to read the below from high up in your ivory tower. "job refuse loader/street cleaner Future Force - 9 reviews - Ilford £7.50 - £8.00 an hour We need a someone that is fit and strong for this position, as it is a physically demanding position, You will be interacting with the public so a good..." Indeed.co.uk Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 06 Nov 17 4.59pm

Originally posted by Stuk

£7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that.

Who is living in a bubble? You may need your glasses to read the below from high up in your ivory tower.

"job
refuse loader/street cleaner
Future Force - 9 reviews - Ilford
£7.50 - £8.00 an hour
We need a someone that is fit and strong for this position, as it is a physically demanding position, You will be interacting with the public so a good..."

Indeed.co.uk

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stuk Top half 06 Nov 17 5.10pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Here we go again... They work in all weathers down our way - just in the warm in yours probably - they lug heavy black bins for hours, full of stinking crap, and then have three recycling boxes to sort, for each home, in as quickly as possible to free up waiting traffic, five days a week. Like to see you doing physically demanding labour at 6am at zero temperatures. You wouldn't last two shifts. Maybe the bin fairy empties yours? They don't lug anything, they wheel bins with lids on (if the lid is open a fraction, they don't take it so no stink either). They do the recycling box on a separate week, and transfer that into a wheelie bin too, and they don't give a hoot about waiting traffic. You can sit there until it's convenient for them and that's that. You don't have the foggiest idea. I'm in the construction industry so early mornings, the cold and hard graft are par for the course. Actual hard graft, not the council equivalent of hard graft. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 06 Nov 17 5.10pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Like to see you doing physically demanding labour at 6am at zero temperatures. You wouldn't last two shifts.

Maybe the bin fairy empties yours?

They don't lug anything, they wheel bins with lids on (if the lid is open a fraction, they don't take it so no stink either). They do the recycling box on a separate week, and transfer that into a wheelie bin too, and they don't give a hoot about waiting traffic. You can sit there until it's convenient for them and that's that.

You don't have the foggiest idea. I'm in the construction industry so early mornings, the cold and hard graft are par for the course. Actual hard graft, not the council equivalent of hard graft.

Optimistic as ever

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Stuk Top half 06 Nov 17 5.16pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Who is living in a bubble? You may need your glasses to read the below from high up in your ivory tower. "job refuse loader/street cleaner Future Force - 9 reviews - Ilford £7.50 - £8.00 an hour We need a someone that is fit and strong for this position, as it is a physically demanding position, You will be interacting with the public so a good..." Indeed.co.uk £7 is less than minimum wage, so no one will be on that. They will more than likely be on the living wage too, which is higher. That's not a dustman's job, they work for the councils not "future force" Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 06 Nov 17 5.16pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Who is living in a bubble? You may need your glasses to read the below from high up in your ivory tower.

Indeed.co.uk

£7 is less than minimum wage, so no one will be on that. They will more than likely be on the living wage too, which is higher.

That's not a dustman's job, they work for the councils not "future force"

Optimistic as ever

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Nov 17 5.16pm
Originally posted by Stuk You are really living in a bubble then. They used to be hard working, now they will not even touch anything unless it's on wheels and can be picked up by a machine. They essentially need to walk from the cart to the bin and back and press a button. £7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that. Just moved councils, and our new bin men are excellent - We don't have wheelie bins - only bags and recycling boxes, and its collected every week. Last week I'd not put everything at the foot of the drive, and they still came and picked it all up. That said, for minimum wage you're going to get people who generally don't give a s**t I guess. What surprised me most about our old cleaners was how much effort they put in for 7.25 an hour from the boss (less than minimum wage as they didn't get paid for travelling to and from jobs). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 Nov 17 5.16pm

Originally posted by Stuk

£7 is less than minimum wage, can't see too many councils getting away with that.

Just moved councils, and our new bin men are excellent - We don't have wheelie bins - only bags and recycling boxes, and its collected every week. Last week I'd not put everything at the foot of the drive, and they still came and picked it all up.

That said, for minimum wage you're going to get people who generally don't give a s**t I guess. What surprised me most about our old cleaners was how much effort they put in for 7.25 an hour from the boss (less than minimum wage as they didn't get paid for travelling to and from jobs).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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