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Stirlingsays Flag 09 Oct 17 10.08am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Technically Vietnam is still a communist country as its still a single party state but like China has also embraced capitalism ( as has Cuba to an extent). Communist economics probably can't co exist in a predominantly capitalist world market.

Communism just doesn't work for large societies. It can work for a small group of similarly minded individuals without much personal ambition.

There's no....it's the wrong type of communism....it just doesn't work.

Any system that is built upon a denial of human nature is doomed to failure.

Marxism works within the context of being a criticism of capitalism......as a form of limiting the excesses of and hence improving capitalism for spreading things more evenly.......but that only works on a universal level...it can't work in isolation...So I agree with you on that....Marxism's affect on capitalism has to be limited to what can actually can work.....This has already happened here with things like universal health care and education and so on....sops from the rich to the poorer to persist within the system.

We need to work within the systems we have.....There is no revolution without blood....So capitalism isn't going away....no one is going to change the protection of properly rights without massive blood letting.....And I don't believe in hitting people over the head as a way of political change.

A society of meritocracy, which protests the vulnerable is already here.....It just needs to be improved and that's via the argument for improvement.


Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Oct 2017 11.08am)

 


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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 09 Oct 17 10.57am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

So within four years. Not quite the safe haven the UK was for him throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s

What is your point exactly. He was prosecuted in the UK when material found on his PC lead to him being convicted of sex offences. He may well have got away with it with the connivance of the disreputable music industry but a wider conspiracy is unlikely.
After jail he went to Cambodia and Vietnam - why do you think he chose those countries?

 


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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 09 Oct 17 10.59am

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Technically Vietnam is still a communist country as its still a single party state but like China has also embraced capitalism ( as has Cuba to an extent). Communist economics probably can't co exist in a predominantly capitalist world market.

Love the 'probably'. Why didn't it work in China, the world's biggest population (despite Mao's policies killing tens of millions of them). What was the flaw in their wonderful communist economy then?

Edited by hedgehog50 (09 Oct 2017 10.59am)

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Oct 17 12.34pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Love the 'probably'. Why didn't it work in China, the world's biggest population (despite Mao's policies killing tens of millions of them). What was the flaw in their wonderful communist economy then?

Edited by hedgehog50 (09 Oct 2017 10.59am)

Because everyone else in the world works on a capitalist system of exchange. Communism cannot really compete with that, as despite its flaws, its an effective system for objective valuing of limited resources.

In order for communist systems of economics to operate you'd need a LOT of countries engaging in a similar system which may be unrealistic on smaller scales (such as the cost of Cuban Sugar to the Soviet Union).

But Capitalism is an efficient system of exchange, where as communism relies on an inefficient system of exchange (one is arguably fixed to supply and demand systems of exchange the other to system of product produced to need - The Cubans did very well out of the exchange of sugar to the Soviet Union, getting a far better return than they would have gotten on a free market).

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Oct 17 12.38pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

What is your point exactly. He was prosecuted in the UK when material found on his PC lead to him being convicted of sex offences. He may well have got away with it with the connivance of the disreputable music industry but a wider conspiracy is unlikely.
After jail he went to Cambodia and Vietnam - why do you think he chose those countries?

That you were claiming that Vietnam was a safe haven - Glitter spent what four years there and was sent down. In the UK, he got away with it for f**king decades (and is recently doing time for historic offences).

Its a bit 'hypocritical' to claim that places like Vietnam are a safe haven for paedos when the UK has turned a blind eye to the likes of Glitter, Savile et al for decades.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Oct 17 12.41pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

What is your point exactly. He was prosecuted in the UK when material found on his PC lead to him being convicted of sex offences. He may well have got away with it with the connivance of the disreputable music industry but a wider conspiracy is unlikely.
After jail he went to Cambodia and Vietnam - why do you think he chose those countries?

What like Savile, was it just the music industry turning a blind eye. Was it the disreputable music industry covering up child sex offences in Childrens Homes and in the Catholic Church.

I think we need to be honest, if we're going to claim that other countries are safe havens, or that Islam is a problem with child sex offences - we have to get accept that actually, the UK has its own dark history of turning a blind eye to child rapists.

 


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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 09 Oct 17 12.42pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

That you were claiming that Vietnam was a safe haven - Glitter spent what four years there and was sent down. In the UK, he got away with it for f**king decades (and is recently doing time for historic offences).

Its a bit 'hypocritical' to claim that places like Vietnam are a safe haven for paedos when the UK has turned a blind eye to the likes of Glitter, Savile et al for decades.

Who turned a blind eye - the corrupt industries here were in. Why did he choose to go to those countries to continue his criminal activities?

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Oct 17 12.43pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Communism just doesn't work for large societies. It can work for a small group of similarly minded individuals without much personal ambition.

There's no....it's the wrong type of communism....it just doesn't work.

Any system that is built upon a denial of human nature is doomed to failure.

Marxism works within the context of being a criticism of capitalism......as a form of limiting the excesses of and hence improving capitalism for spreading things more evenly.......but that only works on a universal level...it can't work in isolation...So I agree with you on that....Marxism's affect on capitalism has to be limited to what can actually can work.....This has already happened here with things like universal health care and education and so on....sops from the rich to the poorer to persist within the system.

We need to work within the systems we have.....There is no revolution without blood....So capitalism isn't going away....no one is going to change the protection of properly rights without massive blood letting.....And I don't believe in hitting people over the head as a way of political change.

A society of meritocracy, which protests the vulnerable is already here.....It just needs to be improved and that's via the argument for improvement.


Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Oct 2017 11.08am)

Pretty much agree with this. Marxist economics of exchange cannot compete with capitalism as a means of exchange, as capitalism understands the concept of scarcity and demand, for rare resources in its model.

 


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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 09 Oct 17 12.43pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Because everyone else in the world works on a capitalist system of exchange. Communism cannot really compete with that, as despite its flaws, its an effective system for objective valuing of limited resources.

In order for communist systems of economics to operate you'd need a LOT of countries engaging in a similar system which may be unrealistic on smaller scales (such as the cost of Cuban Sugar to the Soviet Union).

But Capitalism is an efficient system of exchange, where as communism relies on an inefficient system of exchange (one is arguably fixed to supply and demand systems of exchange the other to system of product produced to need - The Cubans did very well out of the exchange of sugar to the Soviet Union, getting a far better return than they would have gotten on a free market).

Why didn't it work in China? Huge country, loads of resources, loads of people, wicked capitalist exploiters liquidated. Perfect environment for the wonders of Marxist economics to flourish.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 09 Oct 17 1.00pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Who turned a blind eye - the corrupt industries here were in. Why did he choose to go to those countries to continue his criminal activities?

Vietnam is a great country and there are neighbourhoods in Saigon which are like being in any "western country", but considerably cheaper. The city centre in Saigon is much like any modern Asian capital with mixes of historic, colonial and modern buildings and sectors and lots of very good restaurants, bars, hotels etc.

Perhaps he went there simply as it is a nice place to live, cheap, hot, good food and he fancied young Asian kids?

Given those countries still have the death penalty and I'd have though the prisons were fairly unpleasant I imagine he knew he was taking a risk and ended up getting arrested and extradited. Can't see what you're moaning about.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Oct 17 1.24pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Who turned a blind eye - the corrupt industries here were in. Why did he choose to go to those countries to continue his criminal activities?

Clearly because he thought he could get away with it, and was arrested, charged, convicted and sent down for it.

Hardly the hallmark of a safe haven.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Oct 17 1.39pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Why didn't it work in China? Huge country, loads of resources, loads of people, wicked capitalist exploiters liquidated. Perfect environment for the wonders of Marxist economics to flourish.

For the same reasons I gave above: dealing with the rest of the world which isn't communist, and has a more efficient system for valuation of limited resources.

People tend to think that capitalism is a natural system, it isn't, its a model of system based on surplus and demand for that surplus. Communisms tendency towards collectivisation and production specialisation, contravenes this - producing specific products for exchange in which areas specialise in their production (meaning they only have one or two export goods, but need to import all other products from elsewhere based on exchange).

If you only have one thing to sell, and need to import everything else, it tends to put you on the poor side of supply and demand, as those people trading with you, get to name their price as they can get the same elsewhere (your supply is higher than your demand) - plus you're demand for their products is much higher than their supply (meaning you'll pay more).

Basically, communism creates a sellers market for importers and a buyers market for its own products (which is bad news when you have to do business with foreign countries, even other communist ones).

That's why the Chinese and Vietnamese utilise capitalist economic systems. They need them in order to effectively trade with countries on an more or less even basis. Communism as a system can only work in a 'one nation' ie ideal world - in which the scarcity of resources and the dependency of surplus sale are not factors.

Even Communist countries, when trading with other communist countries tend to look to the best deal they can get (much like Capitalist ones). Its especially problematic for communist countries during the cold war - as capitalist countries could afford to not trade with them, as they had a much greater world market share.

Doesn't matter how many people you have in your country - realistically in a modern age, you have to trade with the outside world for something.

Notably within China, the capacity for capitalism within the country as a means of influence, is much lower than seen in the US (Corporations influence of politics is much lower - whether that's a good or bad thing is another matter - arguably both the Chinese and US political systems represent opposite extremes of corruption in terms of the 'voice of the people').

 


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