Mass childrens grave

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Mass childrens grave

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Sep 17 1.10pm
Originally posted by becky 400 deaths between 1870 and 1930: a third were under 5 and most seemed to have died of natural causes such as diseases common at the time........but don't let facts get in the way of the report eh? 400 dead kids at one facility in 60 years does seem to be a bit suspect, especially in one mass grave. Even over 60 years that's six and 2/3rds dead kids in their care. In 1900 child deaths were 165 in 1000 (16.5%). So 400 over a 60 year period isn't necessarily unreasonable - it of course all depends on how many children spent their child hoods their over that period (not necessarily how many kids spent time there - but how many childhoods can be measured there). I sort of expect Christians, being religious, pious etc to have formally buried dead kids, not just dumped them on mass like some pikey fly tipping busted washing machines. Especially, as it suggests that they were disturbing the graves of children to add more dead kids (or at some point dug them up and dumped them into one grave). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Sep 17 1.10pm

Originally posted by becky

400 deaths between 1870 and 1930: a third were under 5 and most seemed to have died of natural causes such as diseases common at the time........but don't let facts get in the way of the report eh?

400 dead kids at one facility in 60 years does seem to be a bit suspect, especially in one mass grave. Even over 60 years that's six and 2/3rds dead kids in their care. In 1900 child deaths were 165 in 1000 (16.5%).

So 400 over a 60 year period isn't necessarily unreasonable - it of course all depends on how many children spent their child hoods their over that period (not necessarily how many kids spent time there - but how many childhoods can be measured there).

I sort of expect Christians, being religious, pious etc to have formally buried dead kids, not just dumped them on mass like some pikey fly tipping busted washing machines. Especially, as it suggests that they were disturbing the graves of children to add more dead kids (or at some point dug them up and dumped them into one grave).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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npn Crowborough 12 Sep 17 1.23pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Oh, come on becky. You know how austere and brutal some of those kids' places could be. It's not normal to find a grave with 400 children in it and unmarked at that in a religious institution. Deffo worth investigating. Of course it's worth investigating. Any idea if they have always been unmarked? it was 100 years ago - no chance they could have been marked, and then all traces of the markings gone (I've seen Time Team), or that it was something to do with communicable diseases? Or it was, effectively, just a paupers grave? I'm really not sure what the OP was trying to infer, but it really didn't ring many alarm bells with me, aside from how sad it was that youth mortality among the poor and underprivileged was terrible (I know, I did my family tree and my mother lost more than one sibling to disease in childhood)
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npn

Crowborough 12 Sep 17 1.23pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Oh, come on becky. You know how austere and brutal some of those kids' places could be. It's not normal to find a grave with 400 children in it and unmarked at that in a religious institution. Deffo worth investigating.

Of course it's worth investigating. Any idea if they have always been unmarked? it was 100 years ago - no chance they could have been marked, and then all traces of the markings gone (I've seen Time Team), or that it was something to do with communicable diseases? Or it was, effectively, just a paupers grave?

I'm really not sure what the OP was trying to infer, but it really didn't ring many alarm bells with me, aside from how sad it was that youth mortality among the poor and underprivileged was terrible (I know, I did my family tree and my mother lost more than one sibling to disease in childhood)

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EaglesEaglesEagles 12 Sep 17 5.33pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Religion, or 'faith', has a nasty tendency to make it 'very acceptable' to do very terrible things. Atheists had to invent Communism and Fascism (arguably atheist religions) to get up to the same kind of antics that Religion has been used for across the centauries. Its bad enough that people still think in terms of ideas being true or somehow real, much worse when you make them absolute truths and put the power of truth in the hands of an elite minority. That's because organised atheism has not been around for more than I'd say three centuries. The first humanists were Christians before the term was manipulated. Your comment is poorly phrased. I quote: "atheists had to invent Communism and Fascism (arguably atheist religions) to get up to the same kind of antics that Religion has been used for across the centauries" You use the word 'invent' here to try and separate good atheists from bad. Not all Nazis were atheists and I'm sure a lot of Communists had doubts too. One thing which is often equated to the atheist or secular movement is the fundamentally evil (in my opinion) field in 'scientific development' of eugenics. There wasn't a fully identifiable ideology like Communism or Fascism behind it. You will find though, that the majority of proponents were atheists. I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry.
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EaglesEaglesEagles

12 Sep 17 5.33pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Religion, or 'faith', has a nasty tendency to make it 'very acceptable' to do very terrible things.

Atheists had to invent Communism and Fascism (arguably atheist religions) to get up to the same kind of antics that Religion has been used for across the centauries.

Its bad enough that people still think in terms of ideas being true or somehow real, much worse when you make them absolute truths and put the power of truth in the hands of an elite minority.

That's because organised atheism has not been around for more than I'd say three centuries. The first humanists were Christians before the term was manipulated.

Your comment is poorly phrased. I quote:

"atheists had to invent Communism and Fascism (arguably atheist religions) to get up to the same kind of antics that Religion has been used for across the centauries"

You use the word 'invent' here to try and separate good atheists from bad. Not all Nazis were atheists and I'm sure a lot of Communists had doubts too.
One thing which is often equated to the atheist or secular movement is the fundamentally evil (in my opinion) field in 'scientific development' of eugenics. There wasn't a fully identifiable ideology like Communism or Fascism behind it. You will find though, that the majority of proponents were atheists.

I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry.

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becky over the moon 12 Sep 17 5.37pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Oh, come on becky. You know how austere and brutal some of those kids' places could be. It's not normal to find a grave with 400 children in it and unmarked at that in a religious institution. Deffo worth investigating. The grave was NOT in the religious institution - it was in a proper cemetery! The poor have always been buried in unmarked 'common' graves - in fact both my paternal grandparents are buried thus, each one in a different grave with at least 9 other people. I know that there have been instances of abuse in Catholic homes - the one in Jersey being a prime example, but there it was all secretive with the bodies buried in the grounds. That is clearly not the case here. Again, the death rate is high, but these were orphans and children abandoned by their parents - they were never going to be in good condition when they got to the home, let alone strong enough to conquer killer diseases and the harsh regime that they faced there, but there is still nothing in that article to suggest anything amiss. A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 12 Sep 17 5.37pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

The grave was NOT in the religious institution - it was in a proper cemetery! The poor have always been buried in unmarked 'common' graves - in fact both my paternal grandparents are buried thus, each one in a different grave with at least 9 other people.

I know that there have been instances of abuse in Catholic homes - the one in Jersey being a prime example, but there it was all secretive with the bodies buried in the grounds. That is clearly not the case here.

Again, the death rate is high, but these were orphans and children abandoned by their parents - they were never going to be in good condition when they got to the home, let alone strong enough to conquer killer diseases and the harsh regime that they faced there, but there is still nothing in that article to suggest anything amiss.

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Sep 17 5.44pm
Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles That's because organised atheism has not been around for more than I'd say three centuries. The first humanists were Christians before the term was manipulated. Your comment is poorly phrased. I quote: "atheists had to invent Communism and Fascism (arguably atheist religions) to get up to the same kind of antics that Religion has been used for across the centauries" You use the word 'invent' here to try and separate good atheists from bad. Not all Nazis were atheists and I'm sure a lot of Communists had doubts too. One thing which is often equated to the atheist or secular movement is the fundamentally evil (in my opinion) field in 'scientific development' of eugenics. There wasn't a fully identifiable ideology like Communism or Fascism behind it. You will find though, that the majority of proponents were atheists. Eugenics, wasn't the problem, the problem was how people were cruelly tortured and mutilated on the basis of eugenics. But then they weren't burning people for being witches either, or waging crusades against infidels, torturing and killing 'heretics' etc. That's what I was referring to, that in order to achieve such great evil, atheism required orders of faith, such as communism and fascism. The issue isn't religion, its the ideology of 'truth' and possession the power of an absolute truth. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Sep 17 5.44pm

Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles

That's because organised atheism has not been around for more than I'd say three centuries. The first humanists were Christians before the term was manipulated.

Your comment is poorly phrased. I quote:

"atheists had to invent Communism and Fascism (arguably atheist religions) to get up to the same kind of antics that Religion has been used for across the centauries"

Eugenics, wasn't the problem, the problem was how people were cruelly tortured and mutilated on the basis of eugenics.

But then they weren't burning people for being witches either, or waging crusades against infidels, torturing and killing 'heretics' etc.

That's what I was referring to, that in order to achieve such great evil, atheism required orders of faith, such as communism and fascism.

The issue isn't religion, its the ideology of 'truth' and possession the power of an absolute truth.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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hedgehog50 Croydon 12 Sep 17 5.44pm
Originally posted by becky The grave was NOT in the religious institution - it was in a proper cemetery! The poor have always been buried in unmarked 'common' graves - in fact both my paternal grandparents are buried thus, each one in a different grave with at least 9 other people. I know that there have been instances of abuse in Catholic homes - the one in Jersey being a prime example, but there it was all secretive with the bodies buried in the grounds. That is clearly not the case here. Again, the death rate is high, but these were orphans and children abandoned by their parents - they were never going to be in good condition when they got to the home, let alone strong enough to conquer killer diseases and the harsh regime that they faced there, but there is still nothing in that article to suggest anything amiss. As is often the case, some common sense from Becky. Contrast it with Kermit's constant s*** stirring. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 12 Sep 17 5.44pm

Originally posted by becky

As is often the case, some common sense from Becky. Contrast it with Kermit's constant s*** stirring.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Sep 17 5.46pm
Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles That's because organised atheism has not been around for more than I'd say three centuries. The first humanists were Christians before the term was manipulated. Is there such a thing as organised atheism - I'd argue that their isn't, the lack of belief in the existence of a god, doesn't serve as a justification for anything. Don't mistake things like secular humanism, for atheism - their only shared tennet is that neither believe in the existence of god. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Sep 17 5.46pm

Originally posted by EaglesEaglesEagles

That's because organised atheism has not been around for more than I'd say three centuries. The first humanists were Christians before the term was manipulated.

Is there such a thing as organised atheism - I'd argue that their isn't, the lack of belief in the existence of a god, doesn't serve as a justification for anything.

Don't mistake things like secular humanism, for atheism - their only shared tennet is that neither believe in the existence of god.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 12 Sep 17 5.52pm
Originally posted by becky The grave was NOT in the religious institution - it was in a proper cemetery! The poor have always been buried in unmarked 'common' graves - in fact both my paternal grandparents are buried thus, each one in a different grave with at least 9 other people. I know that there have been instances of abuse in Catholic homes - the one in Jersey being a prime example, but there it was all secretive with the bodies buried in the grounds. That is clearly not the case here. Again, the death rate is high, but these were orphans and children abandoned by their parents - they were never going to be in good condition when they got to the home, let alone strong enough to conquer killer diseases and the harsh regime that they faced there, but there is still nothing in that article to suggest anything amiss. [Link] Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 12 Sep 17 5.52pm

Originally posted by becky

[Link]

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Kermit8 Hevon 12 Sep 17 5.52pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 As is often the case, some common sense from Becky. Contrast it with Kermit's constant s*** stirring. Yes, i wouldn't put it past you to ignore the abuse of children: [Link] Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 12 Sep 17 5.52pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

As is often the case, some common sense from Becky. Contrast it with Kermit's constant s*** stirring.

Yes, i wouldn't put it past you to ignore the abuse of children:

[Link]

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Oliver Bodega Bay 12 Sep 17 5.54pm
Another here truly shocking [Link] I have prepared one of my own time capsules. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like.
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Oliver

Bodega Bay 12 Sep 17 5.54pm

Another here truly shocking [Link]

I have prepared one of my own time capsules. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like.

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becky over the moon 12 Sep 17 7.12pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Yes, i wouldn't put it past you to ignore the abuse of children: [Link] Children were beaten, humiliated and made to take cold showers...... sounds just like Gordonstoun! Yes, it's abuse of children by today's standards of care where you can't even smack a child, but in the time period in question that was, rightly or wrongly, considered an acceptable way to treat people in care - even those consigned to the workhouse were little better off. And as both articles (one seems to be a lift from the other) say - there were death certificates for all 402 children which largely show disease or other natural causes. The emotive term 'Mass Grave' seems to be being used here to try and imply some sinister mass murder by beating with bodies dumped willy nilly in an unmarked bit of dirt - rather like those of massacres, when it clearly is not the case. Why do I have the suspicion that the 'survivors' (was that 2 friends quoted in the article?) have their own agenda......... A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 12 Sep 17 7.12pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Yes, i wouldn't put it past you to ignore the abuse of children:

[Link]

Children were beaten, humiliated and made to take cold showers...... sounds just like Gordonstoun!

Yes, it's abuse of children by today's standards of care where you can't even smack a child, but in the time period in question that was, rightly or wrongly, considered an acceptable way to treat people in care - even those consigned to the workhouse were little better off.

And as both articles (one seems to be a lift from the other) say - there were death certificates for all 402 children which largely show disease or other natural causes.

The emotive term 'Mass Grave' seems to be being used here to try and imply some sinister mass murder by beating with bodies dumped willy nilly in an unmarked bit of dirt - rather like those of massacres, when it clearly is not the case.

Why do I have the suspicion that the 'survivors' (was that 2 friends quoted in the article?) have their own agenda.........

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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Stirlingsays 12 Sep 17 7.18pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Yes, i wouldn't put it past you to ignore the abuse of children: [Link] Wow, Kermy...that's pretty harsh. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Sep 17 7.18pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Yes, i wouldn't put it past you to ignore the abuse of children:

[Link]

Wow, Kermy...that's pretty harsh.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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