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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Jun 17 11.48am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
That is what allows me to make an unbiased observation. Justice is about serving and protecting the public interest. It is not about retribution or at least, it shouldn't be. Well the same could be said of a murder, or any crime. The key issue here I think, is that members of the police were involved in what appears to be a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in order to avoid culpability. The negligence of the decision on the day itself is understandable, maybe, that the police felt they had to make that decision in order to prevent a riot. What makes it criminal is the obfuscation, deception and maleficence following the event, including forgery of statements (by altering them) in order to shift culpability on to victims. I think that in any society that values the idea of rule of law, those who deliberately attempt to pervert the course of justice should face the full weight of the law, especially if their a part of that justice system.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Jun 17 11.53am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I have questioned whether it is in the public interest. I believe that people will go to jail for political reasons, and if you wonder what I mean, look at the way that Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies have stoked up anger over the Grenfell fire. It's the world we live in. Well, you say political reasons. They do have to be convicted beyond reasonable doubt, and the CPS has to fulfil actus and mens rae. And I'm not sure police officers changing witness statements and testimony, constitutes political reasons. That's several very serious crimes right there. The injustice here is that its taken 28 years to get was pretty obvious after six or seven years. Enquiries should not have such narrow scope, and should always be independent and public. Realistically, had this been the case at the time I suspect a lot more people would be facing charges. Its just that after 28 years its a lot harder to prove intentions and motivations.
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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Jun 17 11.56am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well the same could be said of a murder, or any crime. The key issue here I think, is that members of the police were involved in what appears to be a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in order to avoid culpability. The negligence of the decision on the day itself is understandable, maybe, that the police felt they had to make that decision in order to prevent a riot. What makes it criminal is the obfuscation, deception and maleficence following the event, including forgery of statements (by altering them) in order to shift culpability on to victims. I think that in any society that values the idea of rule of law, those who deliberately attempt to pervert the course of justice should face the full weight of the law, especially if their a part of that justice system. I don't disagree at all. I just want justice served for the right reasons and not just for public satisfaction.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 30 Jun 17 12.02pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I don't disagree at all. I just want justice served for the right reasons and not just for public satisfaction. I'll be surprised if Duckface gets anywhere near the kind of sentence that you or I would get for the manslaughter of 95 people. I'll be surprised if any of them get a guilty verdict at trial for anything carrying jail time. Their defence will be around reasonable doubt, and mens/actus defences.
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Kermit8 Hevon 30 Jun 17 12.31pm | |
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I think Duckenfield may just get away with it which will be very disappointing due to his general non-contrite demeanour since the event. He deserves some punishment for his actions and covering-up and fabrications. To secure a conviction, the Crown Prosecution Service must show firstly the existence of a duty of care to the deceased. Then, it must prove that duty of care was breached, and thirdly that the breach of duty caused or else significantly contributed to the deaths. Finally, prosecutors would have to convince a jury that the breach should be characterised as gross negligence, and therefore a crime.
Perverting the course of justice also carries a maximum life sentence, but again in reality a life sentence is highly unusual. Prosecutors must show there was an intention to pervert or alter the course of justice.
It also carries a maximum life sentence. The prosecution must show a public officer either “wilfully neglects to perform his or her duty or wilfully misconducts himself” to such a degree that it amounts to “an abuse of the public’s trust in the office holder”. A series of cases have established definitions for ‘wilful’ and a recognition that the behaviour must be serious enough to amount to abuse of public trust. Graham Henry Mackrell, who was Sheffield Wednesday Football Club’s company secretary and safety officer at the time, has been charged with two offences of contravening a term of condition of a safety certificate contrary to the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 and one offence of failing to take reasonable care for the health and safety of other persons who may have been affected by his acts or omissions at work under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974.
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wordup 30 Jun 17 11.13pm | |
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Justice wasn't done at the time and so it leads to situations like this.
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michaelpearce grays 03 Jul 17 7.13pm | |
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yes not admitting they screwed up at the start needs punishing but also they are not 100% at fault the liverpool fans are just as much to blame they killed there own fans by not going to the wings they pushed and pushed without care to get in the middle section. they blamed other team supporters for the heysel disaster because we all know that liverpool fans have never attacked anyone
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Stirlingsays 03 Jul 17 7.33pm | |
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When it comes to justice I only trust the facts. Not the spin or the emotion attributed by those who think they hold moral high-grounds. I have found some of the black and white moralising in this particular case embarrassing if totally expected....zero balance like they think they already know what the result should be. If there are any weaknesses in the verdict then they are going to be exposed with an appeal and cost the public purse ever more money. So all I request is a factual and accurate verdict please....something that I increasingly worry about with the courts.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Jul 17 5.53pm | |
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Originally posted by michaelpearce
yes not admitting they screwed up at the start needs punishing but also they are not 100% at fault the liverpool fans are just as much to blame they killed there own fans by not going to the wings they pushed and pushed without care to get in the middle section. they blamed other team supporters for the heysel disaster because we all know that liverpool fans have never attacked anyone Not according to the findings of the public enquiry, the Liverpool fans were not responsible for the deaths of 96 people - the police and stewards were. Heysel Stadium, they were responsible, and there were criminal charges brought against fans. Court of law innit.
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Stirlingsays 04 Jul 17 6.29pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Not according to the findings of the public enquiry, the Liverpool fans were not responsible for the deaths of 96 people - the police and stewards were. Heysel Stadium, they were responsible, and there were criminal charges brought against fans. Court of law innit. Yeah, but you haven't agreed with verdicts yourself in the past. Neither have I. 'Court of law innit' ain't good enough gov. Just from my layman's understanding, these people died due to fans pushing from the back.....an idiot knows that this causes problems. The Police made a mistake by allowing the possibility for that to happen. I'm not comfortable with what some people are ok with calling this. The whitewashing of human realities so that there can be a black and white 'clear' person to blame instead of the holistic story doesn't come across as justice to me.....personally I see a lot of blame probably more accurately distributed in a lot of areas....regulations..FA..Policing...the mentality of crowds (but not every individual) and so on. It comes across as the courts doing 'people pleasing' to me. Only this part bothers me. I am far more comfortable in the area of cover ups. Corruption in the Police should always be hunted and rooted out. I don't have an issue with that. Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Jul 2017 6.33pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Kermit8 Hevon 04 Jul 17 7.58pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yeah, but you haven't agreed with verdicts yourself in the past. Neither have I. 'Court of law innit' ain't good enough gov. Just from my layman's understanding, these people died due to fans pushing from the back.....an idiot knows that this causes problems. The Police made a mistake by allowing the possibility for that to happen. I'm not comfortable with what some people are ok with calling this. The whitewashing of human realities so that there can be a black and white 'clear' person to blame instead of the holistic story doesn't come across as justice to me.....personally I see a lot of blame probably more accurately distributed in a lot of areas....regulations..FA..Policing...the mentality of crowds (but not every individual) and so on. It comes across as the courts doing 'people pleasing' to me. Only this part bothers me. I am far more comfortable in the area of cover ups. Corruption in the Police should always be hunted and rooted out. I don't have an issue with that. Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Jul 2017 6.33pm) And from near the front and from the middle and toward the back and at the sides. That's what happens when 5,000 people are crammed into an already full pen meant for 3,000 with the last couple of thousand entering simultaneously within 90 seconds of each other. Sad thing was of course, which Duckenfield could see, was that the two side pens were half empty when the gate was opened but no-one had put stewards or police at the entrance to the middle one to divert them.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 04 Jul 17 9.41pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yeah, but you haven't agreed with verdicts yourself in the past. Neither have I. 'Court of law innit' ain't good enough gov. Just from my layman's understanding, these people died due to fans pushing from the back.....an idiot knows that this causes problems. The Police made a mistake by allowing the possibility for that to happen. I'm not comfortable with what some people are ok with calling this. The whitewashing of human realities so that there can be a black and white 'clear' person to blame instead of the holistic story doesn't come across as justice to me.....personally I see a lot of blame probably more accurately distributed in a lot of areas....regulations..FA..Policing...the mentality of crowds (but not every individual) and so on. It comes across as the courts doing 'people pleasing' to me. Only this part bothers me. I am far more comfortable in the area of cover ups. Corruption in the Police should always be hunted and rooted out. I don't have an issue with that. Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Jul 2017 6.33pm) If our courts are so s***e why are we insisting on jettisoning the failsafe of European courts to keep them in check.
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