I don't think its quite as simple as a moral stance. Either you negotiate the price for peace, and that involves some give, or you work out just how many people you're prepared to see die for your moral high point.

Pragmatically, we could be talking about millions of dead people, and the relative destruction of many Japanese metropolises and most of South Korea and that may be before you start to count military casualties.

Do I like that we occasionally have to make a deal with North Korea every few years, no. But I don't think that we (or the US) can really influence North Korea militarily to give up its nuclear programs either.

So we're back an in impasse. Do we start a war, which we can only likely win with massive casualties, or look at whether the 'dane gold' is reasonable.

After all, if the price of peace is reasonable, then why not. Its not like they're demanding that we all join the Communist Party.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

You are quite the modern day 'Chamberlain' Jamie.

Again, I think this analysis is short sighted.

Once you accept the danegeld with NK you show that blackmail works and you encourage this approach with other emerging states.

For me personally I would never agree to this. Of course...I only represent an opinion as does any individual. Japan and South Korea can make their own minds up or course but I think it's a foolish path.

The US needs to draw a line in the sand quickly before it loses all its options here. NK is essentially China's little barking dog and we are the scared tart standing on the chair.

I'm afraid it's calculation like yours Jamie that has led us here.

Destroying the capital Pyongyang has to be a real possibility.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 May 2017 12.18pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

You can't be certain of NK's intentions and you don't build a defence policy on guesses on intentions....You build it on capacity. With the USSR we knew we had a rational opponent, whereas with North Korea we have guesswork.

If Japan and South Korea wish to bend its knee then that's for them....though I wouldn't be so certain that this would carry much favour for long in Japan. They need to be building underground bunkers....Hell, it's a crime that this hasn't been invested in even here.

I've said what I think should be done...I wouldn't be surprised if Trump's team has done this already. You provide your client states with as much anti missile capacity as possible. Notice that China object heavily to this...How surprising. Then you tell China and its barking dog that once you assess that they have advanced their strike capacity to a certain stage that they will lose Pyongyang. This is what happens when you continue to pass the buck down the line and let the problem continue to grow.

It should be made very clear that we won't be paying any danegeld.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 May 2017 12.47pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Of course they're rational, because irrational dictators tend to end up 'having accidents'. They seem irrational, but like anything, the 'Leader' isn't really the person in charge, they're the symbol of power.

They're not, as a rule, raving mad men. And even if they are, they tend to be quickly replaced, because like any other system, the elite have their own interests at heart.

I think Japan might be more concerned that they'd carry the vast weight of the retaliation for the US foreign policy.

We're not though, we're negotiating with them, because the consequence of an actual war with North Korea potentially means millions on dead in South Korea and Japan - Which isn't an acceptable price for preventing North Korean missile research.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

I wish I could say I agreed with any of your analysis on this topic Jamie.

Regardless we are pawns on the board and we will see where the Kings and Queens move us.

Quite a while ago I started looking for what I should do for my family in the result of a nuclear attack....I'm probably fifty miles away from the most likely target.....third degree burns at worse, building would stand up and depending on the wind direction half an hour to get underground with provisions....Still, I swiftly discovered that there is no provision for the general public.

You can't even easily get planning permission to start building an underground bunker.

I think the general public need to start putting pressure on the government for more of a 'cold war' mentality. We need the options to create communal bunkers.

Up s*** creek without a paddle.

Edited by Stirlingsays (15 May 2017 1.16pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Trump and the new South Korean head chap have both said they'd be up for meeting him in the right circumstances. No one wants a war so engagement and conversation is the best route to bringing about a better way of N Korea working with the rest of the world. It might just be the olive branch they need to dig their backwards regime and poor people out of the dark ages.