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The rise of the alt-left
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 Stirlingsays  04 May 17 7.55am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think its tragic that people can't tell the difference between National Socialism and Fascism. Especially Neo-Nazis - that seems really odd, that most of them claim to be Nazis, but are really supporters of Fascism. If you take the racism, prejudice, murder and hate out of National Socialism its got some very salient points to make, that many people would agree with. Social programs, unions, wealth distribution, workers rights to accommodation, food, water etc restrictions on corporations and their power. Its easy to get caught up in the horrors of the genocide and horrors, but its important to remember that it wasn't all anti-Semitism, marching up and down and hating dark skinned people. It was much more about policy, social programmes, educational programs. There was a reason why it was popular with the German population (and provided resolution of serious social problems so much that people would turn a blind eye to your neighbours being 'removed'). The Nazis Party would have been horrified at the cost of rents in the modern UK. I blame the schools. Todays Neo-Nazis are just fashion statements. In a sense it's quite easy to understand. I mean it's all there...national...meaning being for the nation state as in nationalism and socialist as in policies for the collective. I think today many people find it hard to think of a military nationalistic socialism. Far easier to just see the authoritarianism and say 'Nazi'.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Penge Eagle Beckenham 04 May 17 8.22am |
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Tim Pool is pretty good. His video reports on the immigration issues in Sweden are definitely worth watching.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 04 May 17 9.23am |
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Originally posted by miss smith
yes your right politics is made up of people like your self who feel there opinions have some impact on the order of things, your opinions like my opinions have no value what so ever ,just like that t*** sitting on his bed it gives you sense of identity , but anyhow hope you have a nice day, and go for a walk the bluebells should still be in full bloom Edited by miss smith (01 May 2017 7.10am) Edited by miss smith (01 May 2017 7.10am) So if opinions count for nothing and big business controls everything, how do you explain the Brexit vote. Tell me was 9/11 an inside job ? Edited by dannyh (04 May 2017 9.23am)
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| legaleagle 04 May 17 9.27am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think its tragic that people can't tell the difference between National Socialism and Fascism. Especially Neo-Nazis - that seems really odd, that most of them claim to be Nazis, but are really supporters of Fascism. If you take the racism, prejudice, murder and hate out of National Socialism its got some very salient points to make, that many people would agree with. Social programs, unions, wealth distribution, workers rights to accommodation, food, water etc restrictions on corporations and their power. Its easy to get caught up in the horrors of the genocide and horrors, but its important to remember that it wasn't all anti-Semitism, marching up and down and hating dark skinned people. It was much more about policy, social programmes, educational programs. There was a reason why it was popular with the German population (and provided resolution of serious social problems so much that people would turn a blind eye to your neighbours being 'removed'). The Nazis Party would have been horrified at the cost of rents in the modern UK. I blame the schools. Todays Neo-Nazis are just fashion statements. National socialism,as opposed to socialism, evolved from particular ideological roots.To take out the prejudice would be precisely to take out an essential constituent part. All the things you single out as good such as social and educational programmes,rights to accommodation and food are precisely those parts which relate as much to socialism as to national socialism.The negatives are more specific to national socialism.The modern variant has of course evolved with the times and it wouldn't consist of people in jackboots gassing people,but its remains scummy now and before. Key to national socialism is the idea of the superiority of one nation above another.With the Nazis,this was that a nation is the highest creation of a race, and great nations were the creation of great races.Hence,the idea of the race being corrupted by immigrants The weakest nations were in contrast those of 'impure races', because they had divided, quarrelling, and therefore weak cultures. Worst of all were seen to be the parasitic Untermensch, a group mainly comprised of Jews, but also Gypsies, homosexuals the disabled and other 'antisocials' were considered lebensunwertes Leben (Life-unworthy life), owing to their perceived deficiency and inferiority.Substitute today,muslims and immigrants,not unmworthy of life,but "scum" to be got rid of... Hitler believed that ethnic and linguistic diversity had weakened Germany. He perceived democracy as a corrosive force, because it placed power in the hands of ethnic minorities, who he claimed had further "weaken and destabilise" the success of his people. In order for Germany to be great again, it needed to be made up of a master race, a pure Aryan people who had not been polluted by outside forces and insidious immigrants. Substitute the EU for "democracy as a corrosive force" ,add in characterising judges who uphold the law as "enemies of the people" and for dessert a twist of making Britain great again, and today's national socialist cocktail ain't ideologically as far removed from the previous Mosleyite British variant (adapted and devolved for modern times) as some might wish to have us believe...
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| hedgehog50 Croydon 04 May 17 10.30am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
National socialism,as opposed to socialism, evolved from particular ideological roots.To take out the prejudice would be precisely to take out an essential constituent part. All the things you single out as good such as social and educational programmes,rights to accommodation and food are precisely those parts which relate as much to socialism as to national socialism.The negatives are more specific to national socialism.The modern variant has of course evolved with the times and it wouldn't consist of people in jackboots gassing people,but its remains scummy now and before. Key to national socialism is the idea of the superiority of one nation above another.With the Nazis,this was that a nation is the highest creation of a race, and great nations were the creation of great races.Hence,the idea of the race being corrupted by immigrants The weakest nations were in contrast those of 'impure races', because they had divided, quarrelling, and therefore weak cultures. Worst of all were seen to be the parasitic Untermensch, a group mainly comprised of Jews, but also Gypsies, homosexuals the disabled and other 'antisocials' were considered lebensunwertes Leben (Life-unworthy life), owing to their perceived deficiency and inferiority.Substitute today,muslims and immigrants,not unmworthy of life,but "scum" to be got rid of... Hitler believed that ethnic and linguistic diversity had weakened Germany. He perceived democracy as a corrosive force, because it placed power in the hands of ethnic minorities, who he claimed had further "weaken and destabilise" the success of his people. In order for Germany to be great again, it needed to be made up of a master race, a pure Aryan people who had not been polluted by outside forces and insidious immigrants. Substitute the EU for "democracy as a corrosive force" ,add in characterising judges who uphold the law as "enemies of the people" and for dessert a twist of making Britain great again, and today's national socialist cocktail ain't ideologically as far removed from the previous Mosleyite British variant (adapted and devolved for modern times) as some might wish to have us believe... Of course the communists never targeted specific groups did they? Although I accept that their remit was even wider, enemies of the people were present everywhere. Far more people have been slaughtered in the name of communist ideology than fascist. Both creeds evil of course, but there are still diluted versions of both existing - mostly communist-lite advocates who populate what is considered 'the left' these days. Edited by hedgehog50 (04 May 2017 10.31am)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| legaleagle 04 May 17 11.33am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Of course the communists never targeted specific groups did they? Although I accept that their remit was even wider, enemies of the people were present everywhere. Far more people have been slaughtered in the name of communist ideology than fascist. Both creeds evil of course, but there are still diluted versions of both existing - mostly communist-lite advocates who populate what is considered 'the left' these days. Edited by hedgehog50 (04 May 2017 10.31am) But,that is irrelevant to my point...we are talking here about the virtues or otherwise of modern day national socialism....
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 04 May 17 11.38am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
But,that is irrelevant to my point...we are talking here about the virtues or otherwise of modern day national socialism.... Diverting the subject normally means the other person has won the argument!
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 May 17 11.39am |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Of course the communists never targeted specific groups did they? Although I accept that their remit was even wider, enemies of the people were present everywhere. Far more people have been slaughtered in the name of communist ideology than fascist. Both creeds evil of course, but there are still diluted versions of both existing - mostly communist-lite advocates who populate what is considered 'the left' these days. Edited by hedgehog50 (04 May 2017 10.31am) Equally true of National Socialism and Germany - The targets weren't just racial, but also political to the point that it was, like Communism, anyone critical of the state. People who told the truth about the Russian front, like the White Rose movement, were executed. The truth of 1984 is that its about the nature of power and total power, and how that cannot help but result in tyranny - first over the political, then the social and then the personal - Until that power dictates everything.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 May 17 11.42am |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
But,that is irrelevant to my point...we are talking here about the virtues or otherwise of modern day national socialism.... Modern day 'national socialists' don't really have a social political agenda, in the US at least, that's comparable to that of the, at least early, National Socialist - They're really more a tool of the right with the trappings of national socialism, focused much more on racial issues, than social programs. Its hard to see them introducing educational reforms, workers rights etc.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 04 May 17 1.29pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
National socialism,as opposed to socialism, evolved from particular ideological roots.To take out the prejudice would be precisely to take out an essential constituent part. All the things you single out as good such as social and educational programmes,rights to accommodation and food are precisely those parts which relate as much to socialism as to national socialism.The negatives are more specific to national socialism.The modern variant has of course evolved with the times and it wouldn't consist of people in jackboots gassing people,but its remains scummy now and before. Key to national socialism is the idea of the superiority of one nation above another.With the Nazis,this was that a nation is the highest creation of a race, and great nations were the creation of great races.Hence,the idea of the race being corrupted by immigrants The weakest nations were in contrast those of 'impure races', because they had divided, quarrelling, and therefore weak cultures. Worst of all were seen to be the parasitic Untermensch, a group mainly comprised of Jews, but also Gypsies, homosexuals the disabled and other 'antisocials' were considered lebensunwertes Leben (Life-unworthy life), owing to their perceived deficiency and inferiority.Substitute today,muslims and immigrants,not unmworthy of life,but "scum" to be got rid of... Hitler believed that ethnic and linguistic diversity had weakened Germany. He perceived democracy as a corrosive force, because it placed power in the hands of ethnic minorities, who he claimed had further "weaken and destabilise" the success of his people. In order for Germany to be great again, it needed to be made up of a master race, a pure Aryan people who had not been polluted by outside forces and insidious immigrants. Substitute the EU for "democracy as a corrosive force" ,add in characterising judges who uphold the law as "enemies of the people" and for dessert a twist of making Britain great again, and today's national socialist cocktail ain't ideologically as far removed from the previous Mosleyite British variant (adapted and devolved for modern times) as some might wish to have us believe... Very nice, but you always forget that all 'races', colours and creeds share the same human condition and are likely to do ill to other groups given an excuse.The specific politics is almost incidental. It is just mechanism. Look at Palestine as a perfect example. Many Jews fleeing persecution in Europe are given a new homeland and then the government of that country begins a begin a systematic policy to push the existing population out of their lands. Irony some would say but there are no good and bad guys. There is just a ruthless streak of opportunism and self interest running through humanity.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 May 17 3.50pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Very nice, but you always forget that all 'races', colours and creeds share the same human condition and are likely to do ill to other groups given an excuse.The specific politics is almost incidental. It is just mechanism. Look at Palestine as a perfect example. Many Jews fleeing persecution in Europe are given a new homeland and then the government of that country begins a begin a systematic policy to push the existing population out of their lands. Irony some would say but there are no good and bad guys. There is just a ruthless streak of opportunism and self interest running through humanity. Quite, never underestimate the ability of those with power or majority influence, to use that power and influence to persecute groups of people that don't have access to political protection and rights.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 May 17 4.03pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Very nice, but you always forget that all 'races', colours and creeds share the same human condition and are likely to do ill to other groups given an excuse.The specific politics is almost incidental. It is just mechanism I think its more about how power is distributed, regulated and mitigated within a political system that makes the difference - and the important factors here are independence of regulatory groups. For example, citizens rights without an independent judiciary are rendered politically impotent - What makes them valid is the capacity of the judiciary to rule against the state and the 'popular opinion'. If they can't then rights are meaningless. Democratic systems tend to function inefficiently, but effectively, because they have degrees of distribution of power, systems of mitigation and regulation that are enforced by independent systems.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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