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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 27 Mar 17 11.38am | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
No if you aim a bomb at a block of flats you are murdering the people inside it is premeditated as you targeted it. A reasonable view of anyone would be that there may be people living in it you knew what the outcome could be and are responsible for your actions. Should be shot as an example but in reality will be protected and given counselling. See your point
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Stirlingsays 27 Mar 17 11.41am | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
No if you aim a bomb at a block of flats you are murdering the people inside it is premeditated as you targeted it. A reasonable view of anyone would be that there may be people living in it you knew what the outcome could be and are responsible for your actions. Should be shot as an example but in reality will be protected and given counselling. See your point Hard times create strong men.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Mar 17 11.45am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Murder requires intent. So no it isn't. It's a terrible thing but it's manslaughter. That doesn't make it acceptable or ok. Technically its a war crime. Targeting civilians centres is outlawed under the Geneva conventions. The whole 'military dual use' and the fact that 'victors' determine the crimes, generally means its not tested. But hitting a hospital 'by accident' because of say faulty information, is still potentially a war crime, because the actions undertaken are still the responsibility of the 'aggressor'. Of course it might not be a crime; that would generally require an independent group to investigate (and potentially a trial). I'm a strong believer that our leaders should be subject to war crimes investigations. As it is, we tend to just throw a few individuals under the bus, to protect the 'arm chair' commanders and politicians. Why is Blackman a criminal for shooting an Afghan, but Bush not a criminal for operating systematic systems of torture and abduction? Why is Blair not accountable for starting the Iraq war, when individual soliders are accountable for actions he precipitated?
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 27 Mar 17 11.46am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
In this case, I think it may well be true. The bloke has a history of violence, and violent desires, long predating his conversion, including two prison sentences for violent crime involving a knife. There isn't much in the way of planning or strategy to his attack, or direct involvement with terrorist groups. At least one friend, according to The Sun, related he was fixated with the idea of violence and bloodshed to a point that sounded almost fetishist or delusional. Throughout his life he seems to have been drawn to fringe cultures and violence (bizarrely according to The Sun, rave culture, the national front and football hooliganism), with a history of poor impulse control violent tendencies and self delusions of importance. Radical convert in prison, around the time that Islamic Terrorism became 'the big thing', and then the embrace of a violent agenda, in keeping with the rest of his life. I'd probably put him in the category as Brevik / Muir someone who's mental health issues make them a danger to others, who is violent and aligns themselves to violent outlets in order to provide an outlet, and rationality - As times change, they latch onto new excuses for violence, but in terms of politics and the complexity of agendas, they're not really capable of understanding or fitting in (in fact groups tend to reject them, even terrorist groups, because they're a liability). The plan, was delusional at best. To drive over some people, and storm the houses of parliament, armed with a couple of knives. That's more like something a child would imagine as possible, rather than an adult and I suspect he'd never really planned out what he was going to do or really rationally had any true objective in mind other than to commit violence in the name of 'Islam'. Using your reasoning I would argue that anyone who believes in deities to the extent that they would die for them or even pray to them daily could be considered mentally ill. Therefore, any Islamic terrorist killing others on that basis would easily qualify. Perhaps we should section all devoutly religious people as a precaution and ban any practice that encourages that form of mental illness.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 27 Mar 17 11.47am | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
No if you aim a bomb at a block of flats you are murdering the people inside it is premeditated as you targeted it. A reasonable view of anyone would be that there may be people living in it you knew what the outcome could be and are responsible for your actions. Should be shot as an example but in reality will be protected and given counselling. See your point This from one of the biggest fans of McGuinness on here!
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 27 Mar 17 11.49am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I joke Jamie, because to even suggest that ANY UK based far right Party is anything other than a bunch of knuckle dragging idiots is a joke. They don't have the infrastructure, weapons, money, brains, or organisational hierarchy as IS, Al-Qaeda etc etc and for you to suggest they pose "a rising threat" is utterly laughable as well you know you cheeky monkey.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 27 Mar 17 11.50am | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
This from one of the biggest fans of McGuinness on here! Ah! But that's different because he was only killing British people.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Mar 17 11.51am | |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
Well, if we did, we could have prosecuted the command of the Luftwaffe for their crimes. The reason why no one was declared a war criminal for the bombings of London etc is that it would mean holding our own accountable for the likes of Dresden. But politically, its not really viable after the victory, to hold to account your own people (unless they happen to be the people who do the fighting). But I think in later times, if we did, it would make leaders think about the personal consequences of ordering military action (Blair, I'm specifically looking at you here). Personally, I think those who give the orders are more culpable than those who commit the action.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Stirlingsays 27 Mar 17 11.53am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Technically its a war crime. Targeting civilians centres is outlawed under the Geneva conventions. The whole 'military dual use' and the fact that 'victors' determine the crimes, generally means its not tested. But hitting a hospital 'by accident' because of say faulty information, is still potentially a war crime, because the actions undertaken are still the responsibility of the 'aggressor'. Of course it might not be a crime; that would generally require an independent group to investigate (and potentially a trial). I'm a strong believer that our leaders should be subject to war crimes investigations. As it is, we tend to just throw a few individuals under the bus, to protect the 'arm chair' commanders and politicians. Why is Blackman a criminal for shooting an Afghan, but Bush not a criminal for operating systematic systems of torture and abduction? Why is Blair not accountable for starting the Iraq war, when individual soliders are accountable for actions he precipitated? I disagree that you can have a 'war crime' without intent. Though I agree that a lot of this is wordplay and obfuscation. However I do agree that responsibility for the deaths of innocents does need to be taken. Context is everything and each action is its own story. Still, this is intensely impractical in the real world....In a war situation much of this is absurd. If someone is going to fight a war where civilians are near then civilians are going to die. If the enemy take cover near them then the complications for ethical and successful action becomes extremely hard. Again, Jamie, how does Iraq take back its cities?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Mar 17 11.58am | |
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Originally posted by dannyh
I joke Jamie, because to even suggest that ANY UK based far right Party is anything other than a bunch of knuckle dragging idiots is a joke. They don't have the infrastructure, weapons, money, brains, or organisational hierarchy as IS, Al-Qaeda etc etc and for you to suggest they pose "a rising threat" is utterly laughable as well you know you cheeky monkey. Fundamentalist Christians have a much bigger threat, because they won't really require the use of violence in order to create change or influence 'our way of life', they'll have the capacity to do so 'through legitimate means'. In the US, the Christian Right have a disturbingly strong influence on dictating how others should live, act and what they can even know. At its basic core, this undermines the concept of a free democratic nation, if we accept 'the tyranny of democratic power'. Muslims represent about 4% of the nation, Christians represent about half the population. You don't need to resort to extreme acts of terror, if you can martial enough political influence through fear and prejudice to utilise democratic processes against the rest of the population. It should be a concern for us, when we look at the US, to see just how much of a threat groups like the Christian Right present to the notion of a free democratic country.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 27 Mar 17 12.03pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Fundamentalist Christians have a much bigger threat, because they won't really require the use of violence in order to create change or influence 'our way of life', they'll have the capacity to do so 'through legitimate means'. In the US, the Christian Right have a disturbingly strong influence on dictating how others should live, act and what they can even know. At its basic core, this undermines the concept of a free democratic nation, if we accept 'the tyranny of democratic power'. Muslims represent about 4% of the nation, Christians represent about half the population. You don't need to resort to extreme acts of terror, if you can martial enough political influence through fear and prejudice to utilise democratic processes against the rest of the population. It should be a concern for us, when we look at the US, to see just how much of a threat groups like the Christian Right present to the notion of a free democratic country. Straw clutching a bit aren't we ? Christians in the UK are what I would call, " Jesus Followers Light" the coke Zero of Christians if you will. Again if your suggesting UK Churches are going to start sounding like an Alabama backwater church (literally a gathering of the mentally ill), then I think you are stretching the bounds of what is probable and entering into the realms of comedy fiction.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 27 Mar 17 12.08pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Fundamentalist Christians have a much bigger threat, because they won't really require the use of violence in order to create change or influence 'our way of life', they'll have the capacity to do so 'through legitimate means'. In the US, the Christian Right have a disturbingly strong influence on dictating how others should live, act and what they can even know. At its basic core, this undermines the concept of a free democratic nation, if we accept 'the tyranny of democratic power'. Muslims represent about 4% of the nation, Christians represent about half the population. You don't need to resort to extreme acts of terror, if you can martial enough political influence through fear and prejudice to utilise democratic processes against the rest of the population. It should be a concern for us, when we look at the US, to see just how much of a threat groups like the Christian Right present to the notion of a free democratic country. That's not going to happen in Britain though is it. Our relationship with Christianity is very different.
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