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General Election 2017

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 3.54pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

What do you mean by 'poor' and 'inequality'.

"There are basically three current definitions of poverty in common usage: absolute poverty, relative poverty and social exclusion.
Absolute poverty is defined as the lack of sufficient resources with which to keep body and soul together. Relative poverty defines income or resources in relation to the average. It is concerned with the absence of the material needs to participate fully in accepted daily life.
Social exclusion is a new term used by the Government. The Prime Minister described social exclusion as "a shorthand label for what can happen when individuals or areas suffer from a combination of linked problems such as unemployment, poor skills, low incomes, poor housing, high crime environments, bad health and family breakdown"."

Income inequality is usually measured by the Gini coefficient which compares the incomes of deciles of the richest, median earners and the poorest. However I'm talking about not only income inequality but also inequality of opportunity and in how certain groups in society are treated. The lack of opportunity afforded to certain people is one of the biggest problems we have in addressing low levels of productivity and social cohesion. It also exacerbates the issue of income inequality.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Apr 17 3.58pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

Tory cuts are deliberately cruel aimed at the weak and disadvantaged.

There is no economic benefit in gruelling a disabled person why they have not committed suicide.

Just up your street though.

OK Charles Dickens.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Apr 17 4.05pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

That could be said of those on the right quite easily. They ignore problems and blame others.

This quote is from a book published by the OECD in 2015:

"The gap between rich and poor keeps widening. Growth, if any, has disproportionally benefited higher income groups while lower income households have been left behind. This long-run increase in income inequality not only raises social and political concerns, but also economic ones. It tends to drag down GDP growth, due to the rising distance of the lower 40% from the rest of society. Lower income people have been prevented from realising their human capital potential, which is bad for the economy as a whole."

Rising inequality is a direct result of right wing neo-classical ideological policies. This isn't arrogance or high ground - it's harsh reality. It's an inconvenient truth as to fix it would mean redistribution of wealth from the rich and powerful to people who don't vote for right wing parties anyway.

There seems to be much debate about whether the widening gap between very rich and poor has a negative effect on relative wealth over all. I have seen the late Hans Rosling's positive findings on global prosperity and some less favorable findings.

Which is true? My observation is that in the last say 100 years, we are all far better off in this country at least.

 

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.08pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Didn't I answer this post already?

The left don't seem to be able to clarify their position.
The complain about cuts and then complain about the defect.
They complain about living standards but support mass immigration and the suppression of wages that it creates.
They complain about the NHS but have never once solved the crisis in all their years in office.
They complain about housing but the Wilson Government built some of the worst housing ever created and Labour had years in government under Blair and Brown to address it, they didn't. What they did do was open the flood gates for thousands of Eastern European immigrants to make the problem much worse.

Wake up.

Health spending by Government as % of GDP. Note difference between 1997-2010 and 2010-2015. One suggests increased funding to target problems of ageing population, easy to see which. I've highlighted Norway on there - outside the EU with ageing population. Germany which I haven't highlighted spends less as a % of GDP but they don't have peaks or troughs and their spending has been consistent with small increases from 6% in 1997 to 7.2% in 2015. The higher spending than us in the 90s and early 00s means that they didn't need large increases in spending to recover lost ground from underfunding pre 1997.

Health Spending.PNG Attachment: Health Spending.PNG (114.54Kb)

 

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Nest Flag 20 Apr 17 4.09pm Send a Private Message to Nest Add Nest as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

There seems to be much debate about whether the widening gap between very rich and poor has a negative effect on relative wealth over all. I have seen the late Hans Rosling's positive findings on global prosperity and some less favorable findings.

Which is true? My observation is that in the last say 100 years, we are all far better off in this country at least.

You don't say!

 

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.10pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

There seems to be much debate about whether the widening gap between very rich and poor has a negative effect on relative wealth over all. I have seen the late Hans Rosling's positive findings on global prosperity and some less favorable findings.

Which is true? My observation is that in the last say 100 years, we are all far better off in this country at least.

But how well off might we have been if inequality hadn't been allowed to increase so markedly in the 80s and early 90s?? That is the important question. And more importantly what will the impact be going forward if nothing is done to address it compared with if we do address it.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Apr 17 4.10pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Health spending by Government as % of GDP. Note difference between 1997-2010 and 2010-2015. One suggests increased funding to target problems of ageing population, easy to see which. I've highlighted Norway on there - outside the EU with ageing population. Germany which I haven't highlighted spends less as a % of GDP but they don't have peaks or troughs and their spending has been consistent with small increases from 6% in 1997 to 7.2% in 2015. The higher spending than us in the 90s and early 00s means that they didn't need large increases in spending to recover lost ground from underfunding pre 1997.

We are not Norway. I'm not sure what this proves.
How about all the other points?

 

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Lyons550 Flag Shirley 20 Apr 17 4.17pm Send a Private Message to Lyons550 Add Lyons550 as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You should not be drawn into the fallacy that an economy is anything like a household in terms of spending and borrowing.

The country can't afford to keep cutting essential services and delaying investment in education, training, infrastructure and social care.

We'll its not exactly worked out great when it hasn't been run like a household has it tbf...I mean everytime it hasn't the country has been left in a state and the purse strings have had to be reigned in again.

I agree though that there has to be an element of speculation in order to accumulate...but then labour go 'all in' instead...

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 20 Apr 17 4.19pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

"There are basically three current definitions of poverty in common usage: absolute poverty, relative poverty and social exclusion.
Absolute poverty is defined as the lack of sufficient resources with which to keep body and soul together. Relative poverty defines income or resources in relation to the average. It is concerned with the absence of the material needs to participate fully in accepted daily life.
Social exclusion is a new term used by the Government. The Prime Minister described social exclusion as "a shorthand label for what can happen when individuals or areas suffer from a combination of linked problems such as unemployment, poor skills, low incomes, poor housing, high crime environments, bad health and family breakdown"."

Income inequality is usually measured by the Gini coefficient which compares the incomes of deciles of the richest, median earners and the poorest. However I'm talking about not only income inequality but also inequality of opportunity and in how certain groups in society are treated. The lack of opportunity afforded to certain people is one of the biggest problems we have in addressing low levels of productivity and social cohesion. It also exacerbates the issue of income inequality.

Are you JamieMartin in disguise?

The 'cure' for all this 'poverty' and 'inequality' seems to be to take money and opportunities away from people who do not suffer from 'poverty' and 'inequality' and give it to the sufferers, or put the money in some state scheme that is supposed to address the problems. In reality it makes little difference, apart from damaging the economy and the lives of people from whom the money is extracted.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.24pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

We are not Norway. I'm not sure what this proves.
How about all the other points?

It proves that between 1997 and 2010 the government increased spending on NHS in real terms to address chronic underfunding. Since 2010 the Tories have cut spending in real terms despite a desperate need for increases in funding.

 

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CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 20 Apr 17 4.26pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Are you JamieMartin in disguise?

The 'cure' for all this 'poverty' and 'inequality' seems to be to take money and opportunities away from people who do not suffer from 'poverty' and 'inequality' and give it to the sufferers, or put the money in some state scheme that is supposed to address the problems. In reality it makes little difference, apart from damaging the economy and the lives of people from whom the money is extracted.


Damaging the economy? Theoretically and empirically wrong!

I'm not suggesting a Robin Hood tax. This isn't a zero-sum game. Addressing low rates of tax on inheritance, corporate profits and incomes of the wealthy will have a much lower disbenefit than the associated benefit of redistributing that wealth.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 20 Apr 17 4.27pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

But how well off might we have been if inequality hadn't been allowed to increase so markedly in the 80s and early 90s?? That is the important question. And more importantly what will the impact be going forward if nothing is done to address it compared with if we do address it.

That only matters if you can show that people have actually become worse off as a result.
Can you do this?
As to how much richer we could be, that is a good question.
A better question would be how rich would we need to be to satisfy the Left?
I suspect that all the time someone was richer than another they would find fault with society.
If we could equalise wealth without damaging the mechanisms that allow commerce to function effectively and allow for the society we have then I would be interested to see it. What we have is a political system that supports corporate interests and no party will alter that situation in my view. Much as I object to corporate interference and over influence in government, we must be careful what we wish for.

 

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