Revolting that they got another Brit interviewing the guy for effect and even that gets lapped up. One thing we can say though is that going forward it answers the question of whether surrendering is a good idea or not.

Exactly that.

No doubt the polls and votes will only count when the areas are fully occupied. Heavy military presence, Russian media pumped in, death sentences on display for those fighting for their country.. I wonder which way the inevitable referendums will go.... Hmmm.. a real mystery.

While I don't support this invasion I want to pushback on this impression that some have that the Ukraine was a normalised state where people could say and think and do as they pleased....which isn't true even here....it pretty much was in the country I grew up in but the left changed all that....with the right doing nothing to change it back.

The Ukraine before even 2014 was among the most corrupt countries in the world. Criminal gangs and corrupt institutions were the norm.

I think the Zenlensky media brand has led to people just nodding along to a very simplistic understanding of history in this region.

People are being gaslit over realities because people tend to want to believe the reality they prefer rather than accept whatever the reality actually is.

So they will highlight one thing and omit another.

Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Jun 2022 2.06pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I think many people are unrealistic about how this war ends.

To beat Russia and fully restore Ukrainian territorial integrity would require far more commitment than the money and equipment given so far. In my view it would require Nato's full on commitment of troops on the ground using their own best equipment to actually make inroads. Economically I don't think many people quite understand....A what's going to hit us and B, what is required to beat Russia both in time, standard of living drops and blood.....plus the genuine risk of nuclear war that ends most.

This was not the hill to die on....sorry but I think we got this wrong....similar to my position on our covid response.

I called this as a bad hand at the start on the west's decision making here. I don't agree that Putin is going to try to take all the former Soviet territories back and that's just a cope by those trying to justify their prolonging this war. He can be negotiated with and Nato can reinforce actual Nato countries and the same commitment made that any serious attempt to invade will be met with a total war response.

But instead of dealing with realities the west....well, mainly Biden and our own Johnson decided to implement a cold war and push Russia fully into China.....totally bonkers, I can't emphasize how bad I think that is for us....and if I could talk to them I would literally beg them to reverse course before it's too late....if it isn't already.

Most of the Ukraine's best troops have already been used up, lots of them were in Mariupol. While they are filling units with conscripts and foreign mercs it's not quite the same....mercs are good but will always be relatively small in numbers.

Training Ukrainian conscripts in a couple of weeks on how to use new equipment just isn't quite the same as facing already battle hardened more numerous Russia troops with better artillery, air defence and offence technology on front lines.

Even with America deciding to give Zelensky 54 billion dollars with no oversight and Europe practically giving all its old military equipment it's not going to stop Russia's progress.

I get the impression that people want to believe that 'right is might' instead of the reality that 'might is right' all over the world....In my view media propaganda...which will always support the elite in their war decisions will for whatever side fill in the gaps to convince them that their side is... 'right is might'.

What I think is going to happen is that Biden is realising that he has to negotiate an end to this with Putin....or at least his people do.

Zelensky is himself in an impossible position to negotiate now....If he gives up territory to the Russians he'll be another Michael Collins and be dead within the year....Maybe he'll be killed off anyway. I view that as much more likely than Putin dying personally.

Anyway, If they don't negotiate realistically it's hard to predict what Russia will do but they will probably look to level Kiev....take Kharkov and take Odessa which would leave the Ukraine with no sea port.

I think in the US they are already looking at how this war can be ended with the least capital damage to their own reputations.

Personally I think all that can be avoided with a treaty now. Afterwards Nato can arm to the teeth......though personally I'd want a major diplomatic effort with Russia....In my view, that's really the best outcome for the Ukraine's future.

Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Jun 2022 3.56pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I doubt most look at this invasion and the help sent to Ukraine purely in terms of a linear winning or losing, and all things considered doubt the outcome will resemble that for either side. As much as there's not much open talk of a deal being reached, I expect there's much more going on behind the scenes that we're aware of.

While a lack of weapons, ammunition and equipment hampers the Ukrainian military, there are signs that a nascent partisan insurgency is growing in potency, allowing Ukrainian forces to deliver deadly strikes on Russian-controlled territory even in areas where it is dangerous and sometimes impossible to commit troops.

This week, partisan scouts working for Ukraine’s military behind enemy lines directed artillery attacks on two Russian bases in the occupied Kherson region that killed scores of enemy soldiers, according to a senior Ukrainian military official with knowledge of the attacks. - [Link]