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Teddy Eagle 18 Apr 20 4.01pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle No Trump wasn't wrong for sending PPE to China if he genuinely believed there was no risk to the USA. If the medical experts were warning him that there was a risk, and he ignored it, then yes he was wrong. Which do you think was true? He is certainly wrong to blame them for the situation. It's much to early to apportion blame and pretty stupid to do at any time. No-one wants this kind of thing do they? Read the link provided by samprior. We are all in this together. There is far too much divisiveness created by Trump and this is another, very dangerous, manifestation of that side of his hugely flawed character. Whether Waters should have responded like that is an open question. I wouldn't, but I am not a political opponent of Trump trying to deal with him in the weird world he has created. The Guardian article contains some good points. The biggest I picked up was how Trump's determination to abandon the traditional leadership of the USA in international peacekeeping roles, among others, is throwing the door open for China to walk through. The consequences of that can only be guessed at but are unlikely to be beneficial to the western world. Or the equipment was sent as a humanitarian gesture to help people who were at risk and suffering. Wrong to blame the country in which the virus started and which has subsequently reopened, with WHO support, the wet markets thought to be responsible.
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Teddy Eagle

18 Apr 20 4.01pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

No Trump wasn't wrong for sending PPE to China if he genuinely believed there was no risk to the USA. If the medical experts were warning him that there was a risk, and he ignored it, then yes he was wrong. Which do you think was true?

He is certainly wrong to blame them for the situation. It's much to early to apportion blame and pretty stupid to do at any time. No-one wants this kind of thing do they? Read the link provided by samprior. We are all in this together. There is far too much divisiveness created by Trump and this is another, very dangerous, manifestation of that side of his hugely flawed character.

Whether Waters should have responded like that is an open question. I wouldn't, but I am not a political opponent of Trump trying to deal with him in the weird world he has created.

The Guardian article contains some good points. The biggest I picked up was how Trump's determination to abandon the traditional leadership of the USA in international peacekeeping roles, among others, is throwing the door open for China to walk through. The consequences of that can only be guessed at but are unlikely to be beneficial to the western world.

Or the equipment was sent as a humanitarian gesture to help people who were at risk and suffering.
Wrong to blame the country in which the virus started and which has subsequently reopened, with WHO support, the wet markets thought to be responsible.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Apr 20 4.14pm
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle Or the equipment was sent as a humanitarian gesture to help people who were at risk and suffering. I don't think it's wrong at all to help others but I can understand those who, in his own country do, if they believe he knew an outbreak in the USA was likely. Wrong to blame the country in which the virus started and which has subsequently reopened, with WHO support, the wet markets thought to be responsible. When there's no discernible benefit to anyone, or anything, other than his own chances of re-election then blaming anyone is stupid. Especially when there is no actual proof that the wet markets were actually responsible. There is loads of innuendo and finger pointing, so that it seems this has now become an established fact in many people's minds. The truth though is that innuendo is not evidence and the truth is not yet known, and may never be known. Read that article from "The Conversation"! For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 18 Apr 20 4.14pm

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

Or the equipment was sent as a humanitarian gesture to help people who were at risk and suffering.

I don't think it's wrong at all to help others but I can understand those who, in his own country do, if they believe he knew an outbreak in the USA was likely.

Wrong to blame the country in which the virus started and which has subsequently reopened, with WHO support, the wet markets thought to be responsible.

When there's no discernible benefit to anyone, or anything, other than his own chances of re-election then blaming anyone is stupid. Especially when there is no actual proof that the wet markets were actually responsible. There is loads of innuendo and finger pointing, so that it seems this has now become an established fact in many people's minds. The truth though is that innuendo is not evidence and the truth is not yet known, and may never be known. Read that article from "The Conversation"!

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Badger11 Beckenham 18 Apr 20 4.42pm
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle China’s total is rising. [Link] Apparently they realised the abacus wasn't working correctly. I still take that number with a pinch of salt. Edited by Badger11 (18 Apr 2020 4.43pm) One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 18 Apr 20 4.42pm

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

China’s total is rising.

[Link]

Apparently they realised the abacus wasn't working correctly. I still take that number with a pinch of salt.

Edited by Badger11 (18 Apr 2020 4.43pm)

One more point

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Teddy Eagle 18 Apr 20 4.52pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Providing help to contain the outbreak at source makes as much, if not more, sense than stockpiling in case the infection spreads. Calling attention to the origin, and falsifying of evidence, will work if it prevents a future virus from spreading.
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Teddy Eagle

18 Apr 20 4.52pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Providing help to contain the outbreak at source makes as much, if not more, sense than stockpiling in case the infection spreads.
Calling attention to the origin, and falsifying of evidence, will work if it prevents a future virus from spreading.

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samprior Hamburg 18 Apr 20 5.05pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I found it mainly to be 'meh'. However in the conclusion it made two points I feel should be pushed back on. 'Preserving ecosystems and restoring natural habitats can ensure animals don’t need to forage near where humans live. Risky behaviours that expose people to pathogens can be reduced – not by imposing harmful bans on wild meat – but through community engagement that’s respectful of different livelihoods and cultural practices. ' The first point would result in a population increase in animals, which means the exact opposite of its suggestion. On the second point. while 'community engagement' is fair enough, if you're going to push cultural relativism then these practices are ultimately going to continue....So it's nothing but waffle. The Chinese government need to ban these markets or regulate them tightly on animal welfare....which is almost a joke to say. Perhaps the British should have pushed 'community engagement' on Hindu widows being sacrificed on the burning funeral pyres of their dead husbands rather than outright banning the practice....as we rightly did. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 3.07pm) Not necessarily, in their own natural habitat and preserved ecosystem, nature has developed a pretty decent mechanism for keeping things in balance. Go to any large area of nature and you'll find it's coping pretty well at keeping the equilibrium unless we've introduced a foreign species into the environment. Community engagement is key but as you say it's pretty hard to administer. It's certainly not a quick fix but that doesn't mean we should just give up. It's one area the when performed correctly will have a major and lasting effects. I spent 9months in SEasia last year (yes I know lucky me - and no I didnt eat bat, but did meet a few people hunting them in rural areas) and got to witness a lot of the issues we've been speaking about first hand when visiting some of the more remote areas. I've listed below one of the projects I visited who are working so hard to combat a lot of the issues discussed. [Link] I've not got the writing skills to convey quite how eye opening the experience it was. A huge problem in this area was the poaching of wild animals to be sold on the black market to China particularly the Tiger. Almost eradicating the apex predator from the area has had a major knock on effect. But obviously making it illegal does not stop it happening as it's hard to stop the locals from potentially earning a lifetimes wage with one catch. Hence highlighting the importance of these kinds of initiatives that works with, informs and rewards locals. I think anyone who points the finger at China for these issues is absolutely right to do so, but only when they are also doing everything in their power to sort their own backyard out at the same time. Just one relevant example that immediately springs to mind are the figures presented the insane 'The Tiger King' documentary, which stated there are currently double the amount of tigers in US captivity than there are in the wild in the rest of the world. So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy. The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time.
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samprior

Hamburg 18 Apr 20 5.05pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I found it mainly to be 'meh'.

However in the conclusion it made two points I feel should be pushed back on.

'Preserving ecosystems and restoring natural habitats can ensure animals don’t need to forage near where humans live. Risky behaviours that expose people to pathogens can be reduced – not by imposing harmful bans on wild meat – but through community engagement that’s respectful of different livelihoods and cultural practices. '

The first point would result in a population increase in animals, which means the exact opposite of its suggestion.

On the second point. while 'community engagement' is fair enough, if you're going to push cultural relativism then these practices are ultimately going to continue....So it's nothing but waffle. The Chinese government need to ban these markets or regulate them tightly on animal welfare....which is almost a joke to say.

Perhaps the British should have pushed 'community engagement' on Hindu widows being sacrificed on the burning funeral pyres of their dead husbands rather than outright banning the practice....as we rightly did.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 3.07pm)

Not necessarily, in their own natural habitat and preserved ecosystem, nature has developed a pretty decent mechanism for keeping things in balance. Go to any large area of nature and you'll find it's coping pretty well at keeping the equilibrium unless we've introduced a foreign species into the environment.

Community engagement is key but as you say it's pretty hard to administer. It's certainly not a quick fix but that doesn't mean we should just give up. It's one area the when performed correctly will have a major and lasting effects.

I spent 9months in SEasia last year (yes I know lucky me - and no I didnt eat bat, but did meet a few people hunting them in rural areas) and got to witness a lot of the issues we've been speaking about first hand when visiting some of the more remote areas. I've listed below one of the projects I visited who are working so hard to combat a lot of the issues discussed.
[Link]

I've not got the writing skills to convey quite how eye opening the experience it was. A huge problem in this area was the poaching of wild animals to be sold on the black market to China particularly the Tiger. Almost eradicating the apex predator from the area has had a major knock on effect. But obviously making it illegal does not stop it happening as it's hard to stop the locals from potentially earning a lifetimes wage with one catch. Hence highlighting the importance of these kinds of initiatives that works with, informs and rewards locals.

I think anyone who points the finger at China for these issues is absolutely right to do so, but only when they are also doing everything in their power to sort their own backyard out at the same time. Just one relevant example that immediately springs to mind are the figures presented the insane 'The Tiger King' documentary, which stated there are currently double the amount of tigers in US captivity than there are in the wild in the rest of the world.

So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy.

The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time.

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Teddy Eagle 18 Apr 20 5.14pm
Originally posted by samprior Not necessarily, in their own natural habitat and preserved ecosystem, nature has developed a pretty decent mechanism for keeping things in balance. Go to any large area of nature and you'll find it's coping pretty well at keeping the equilibrium unless we've introduced a foreign species into the environment. Community engagement is key but as you say it's pretty hard to administer. It's certainly not a quick fix but that doesn't mean we should just give up. It's one area the when performed correctly will have a major and lasting effects. I spent 9months in SEasia last year (yes I know lucky me - and no I didnt eat bat, but did meet a few people hunting them in rural areas) and got to witness a lot of the issues we've been speaking about first hand when visiting some of the more remote areas. I've listed below one of the projects I visited who are working so hard to combat a lot of the issues discussed. [Link] I've not got the writing skills to convey quite how eye opening the experience it was. A huge problem in this area was the poaching of wild animals to be sold on the black market to China particularly the Tiger. Almost eradicating the apex predator from the area has had a major knock on effect. But obviously making it illegal does not stop it happening as it's hard to stop the locals from potentially earning a lifetimes wage with one catch. Hence highlighting the importance of these kinds of initiatives that works with, informs and rewards locals. I think anyone who points the finger at China for these issues is absolutely right to do so, but only when they are also doing everything in their power to sort their own backyard out at the same time. Just one relevant example that immediately springs to mind are the figures presented the insane 'The Tiger King' documentary, which stated there are currently double the amount of tigers in US captivity than there are in the wild in the rest of the world. So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy. The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time. Excellent points and very well made.
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Teddy Eagle

18 Apr 20 5.14pm

Originally posted by samprior

So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy.

The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time.

Excellent points and very well made.

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Stirlingsays 18 Apr 20 5.30pm
Originally posted by samprior Not necessarily, in their own natural habitat and preserved ecosystem, nature has developed a pretty decent mechanism for keeping things in balance. Go to any large area of nature and you'll find it's coping pretty well at keeping the equilibrium unless we've introduced a foreign species into the environment. Give an example. Originally posted by samprior Community engagement is key but as you say it's pretty hard to administer. It's certainly not a quick fix but that doesn't mean we should just give up. It's one area the when performed correctly will have a major and lasting effects. I'm not against 'community engagement' however again, you could give an example of it working better than laws and regulations. Originally posted by samprior So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy. The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time. Laws are not 'simple solutions', they are consequences for actions that if drafted effectively work over time far better than cultural relativism. A well written post though. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 5.36pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

18 Apr 20 5.30pm

Originally posted by samprior

Give an example.

Originally posted by samprior

I'm not against 'community engagement' however again, you could give an example of it working better than laws and regulations.

Originally posted by samprior

So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy.

The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time.

Laws are not 'simple solutions', they are consequences for actions that if drafted effectively work over time far better than cultural relativism.

A well written post though.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 5.36pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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samprior Hamburg 18 Apr 20 6.08pm
Originally posted by samprior Not necessarily, in their own natural habitat and preserved ecosystem, nature has developed a pretty decent mechanism for keeping things in balance. Go to any large area of nature and you'll find it's coping pretty well at keeping the equilibrium unless we've introduced a foreign species into the environment. Give an example. - I mean just take a look round wherever the closest woodland is to you. Originally posted by samprior Community engagement is key but as you say it's pretty hard to administer. It's certainly not a quick fix but that doesn't mean we should just give up. It's one area the when performed correctly will have a major and lasting effects. I'm not against 'community engagement' however again, you could give an example of it working better than laws and regulations. - I don't think it necessarily works better but will be equally important to any laws and regulations being put in place. The example of the project I gave was one where it is having a positive effect in the area where before the law was just regualarly flouted. Originally posted by samprior So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy. The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time. Laws are not 'simple solutions', they are consequences for actions that if drafted effectively work over time far better than cultural relativism. Certainly on some issues but I'm more skeptical of their effectiveness in isolation (however well implemented) in regards to illegal trade. The war on drugs has the clearest, strictest laws imaginable but have very little overall effect. If you're not working with the communities at each end of the trade then I've very little faith in laws having much of an impact. Where there's demand the supply will always find a way. A well written post though. - cheers but I'll never work out how to do the multiple quote/response thing. Matteo did once try to explain it to me. Edited by samprior (18 Apr 2020 6.10pm) Edited by samprior (18 Apr 2020 6.11pm)
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samprior

Hamburg 18 Apr 20 6.08pm

Originally posted by samprior
Not necessarily, in their own natural habitat and preserved ecosystem, nature has developed a pretty decent mechanism for keeping things in balance. Go to any large area of nature and you'll find it's coping pretty well at keeping the equilibrium unless we've introduced a foreign species into the environment.

Give an example. - I mean just take a look round wherever the closest woodland is to you.

Originally posted by samprior
Community engagement is key but as you say it's pretty hard to administer. It's certainly not a quick fix but that doesn't mean we should just give up. It's one area the when performed correctly will have a major and lasting effects.

I'm not against 'community engagement' however again, you could give an example of it working better than laws and regulations. - I don't think it necessarily works better but will be equally important to any laws and regulations being put in place. The example of the project I gave was one where it is having a positive effect in the area where before the law was just regualarly flouted.

Originally posted by samprior
So I think animal welfare in China and the rest of the world should definitely be one of our priorities going forward, but maybe that's just because I'm a quinoa eating hippy.

The issues we are facing with this virus is so complex and nuanced that offering simple solutions or pretending that a simple solution can be found, put simply, is a waste of time.

Laws are not 'simple solutions', they are consequences for actions that if drafted effectively work over time far better than cultural relativism.

Certainly on some issues but I'm more skeptical of their effectiveness in isolation (however well implemented) in regards to illegal trade. The war on drugs has the clearest, strictest laws imaginable but have very little overall effect. If you're not working with the communities at each end of the trade then I've very little faith in laws having much of an impact. Where there's demand the supply will always find a way.

A well written post though. - cheers but I'll never work out how to do the multiple quote/response thing. Matteo did once try to explain it to me.

Edited by samprior (18 Apr 2020 6.10pm)

Edited by samprior (18 Apr 2020 6.11pm)

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Stirlingsays 18 Apr 20 6.19pm
Originally posted by samprior cheers but I'll never work out how to do the multiple quote/response thing. Matteo did once try to explain it to me. In the image you can see where there is a start quote at the top and where I've added an end quote to your paragraph. Once you have done that around the text you want to reply to...a start quote and an end quote...as in the image...then you can write underneath those sections and it'll appear as your response. If you play around with it you will see. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 6.20pm) Attachment: quote.JPG (66.89Kb) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

18 Apr 20 6.19pm

Originally posted by samprior

cheers but I'll never work out how to do the multiple quote/response thing. Matteo did once try to explain it to me.

In the image you can see where there is a start quote at the top and where I've added an end quote to your paragraph.

Once you have done that around the text you want to reply to...a start quote and an end quote...as in the image...then you can write underneath those sections and it'll appear as your response.

If you play around with it you will see.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 6.20pm)

Attachment: quote.JPG (66.89Kb)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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samprior Hamburg 18 Apr 20 6.29pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays In the image you can see where there is a start quote at the top and where I've added an end quote to your paragraph. Once you have done that around the text you want to reply to...a start quote and an end quote...as in the image...then you can write underneath those sections and it'll appear as your response. If you play around with it you will see. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 6.20pm) Ok cheers. I'll have a play around with it. Thanks for the 'community engagement'
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samprior

Hamburg 18 Apr 20 6.29pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

In the image you can see where there is a start quote at the top and where I've added an end quote to your paragraph.

Once you have done that around the text you want to reply to...a start quote and an end quote...as in the image...then you can write underneath those sections and it'll appear as your response.

If you play around with it you will see.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Apr 2020 6.20pm)

Ok cheers. I'll have a play around with it. Thanks for the 'community engagement'

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Stirlingsays 18 Apr 20 6.30pm
Originally posted by samprior Ok cheers. I'll have a play around with it. Thanks for the 'community engagement' 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

18 Apr 20 6.30pm

Originally posted by samprior

Ok cheers. I'll have a play around with it. Thanks for the 'community engagement'

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Forest Hillbilly in a hidey-hole 18 Apr 20 6.32pm
"We're all in this together" Great Tory quote. Now let's create social division [Link] Coronavirus cases to be tracked by ethnicity (BBC website, 18-4-20) I disengage, I turn the page.
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Forest Hillbilly