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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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W12 01 Jun 22 10.25pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

Posts on here get more puerile by the day.

Something we can agree on for different reasons

 

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Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 01 Jun 22 11.43pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

So you're not a fan of elite theory then.

Where is this claim that elites don't argue amongst themselves? Isn't that what their conferences are for? all groups discuss and argue.....What do you think Musk and others not associating themselves within certain groups is, whereas someone like Gates will?

The point made is that Davos and the associated power structures are driving most of the global policy of western governments.....from suddenly kids eating bugs in schools to 'build back better'....it doesn't just appear out of nowhere.

Apparently most of the western governments all came to the same conclusions on covid, without any external influence at all.....there are hardly any major differences on significant policies....I guess it must all be incidental and just a factor of zoom calls eh.

You seem to want to get lost in the conspiracy weeds...which frankly are neither here nor there. Why not recognise the larger picture.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Jun 2022 7.07pm)

You, along with the little group here that take this line, are seriously confused. The WEF is not, and never has been, where some mysterious power exists that directs governments what they must do. It is what it says on the tin. It's a forum where ideas are exchanged between governments, business and interest groups. It's a recognition of the fact that common problems are more effectively tackled together, than separately. Nothing is, or ever could be, decided there. Political representatives report back to their country's politicians, who then need to decide whether to embrace recommendations, or not. Business leaders report back to their Boards, and shareholders, on what they have learned and how best to react to it. Interest groups seek to influence the others.

This is all an extremely healthy way of ensuring a co-ordinated response to problems which could otherwise have the potential to overwhelm us.

To imagine all of this is done by a sinister group whose sole purpose is personal enrichment, is so transparently impractical I fail to see how any intelligent person could believe it.

It is a blatant example of a conspiracy theory designed to undermine our confidence in our way of international cooperation in today's interconnected world. Just pause for a moment and consider who might profit from spreading such concepts around, and how they might do it. For therein lies the answer to this confusion. The internet is a force for much good, but also the source of a great deal of harm.

 


For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays Flag 02 Jun 22 12.10am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You, along with the little group here that take this line, are seriously confused. The WEF is not, and never has been, where some mysterious power exists that directs governments what they must do. It is what it says on the tin. It's a forum where ideas are exchanged between governments, business and interest groups. It's a recognition of the fact that common problems are more effectively tackled together, than separately. Nothing is, or ever could be, decided there. Political representatives report back to their country's politicians, who then need to decide whether to embrace recommendations, or not. Business leaders report back to their Boards, and shareholders, on what they have learned and how best to react to it. Interest groups seek to influence the others.

This is all an extremely healthy way of ensuring a co-ordinated response to problems which could otherwise have the potential to overwhelm us.

To imagine all of this is done by a sinister group whose sole purpose is personal enrichment, is so transparently impractical I fail to see how any intelligent person could believe it.

It is a blatant example of a conspiracy theory designed to undermine our confidence in our way of international cooperation in today's interconnected world. Just pause for a moment and consider who might profit from spreading such concepts around, and how they might do it. For therein lies the answer to this confusion. The internet is a force for much good, but also the source of a great deal of harm.

And here comes the company man talking his usual ex marketing manager lies.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 02 Jun 22 12.46am Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

So you're not a fan of elite theory then.

Where is this claim that elites don't argue amongst themselves? Isn't that what their conferences are for? all groups discuss and argue.....What do you think Musk and others not associating themselves within certain groups is, whereas someone like Gates will?

The point made is that Davos and the associated power structures are driving most of the global policy of western governments.....from suddenly kids eating bugs in schools to 'build back better'....it doesn't just appear out of nowhere.

Apparently most of the western governments all came to the same conclusions on covid, without any external influence at all.....there are hardly any major differences on significant policies....I guess it must all be incidental and just a factor of zoom calls eh.

You seem to want to get lost in the conspiracy weeds...which frankly are neither here nor there. Why not recognise the larger picture.

Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Jun 2022 7.07pm)

It's nuance.

It depends what kind of elite theory you're into (there are several) and also who or what you determine as an 'elite'. The lazy group them all into one conspiracy led theory is prevalent on here, to varying degrees.

I don't disagree with the obvious fact that money buys power and influence and with corporations at their largest in history, undue influence. As you know I've said before my interpretation is that corporations will eventually become de facto government. Some would say we're there but I beg to differ. Much further to go there.

What I disagree with is this notion that they all band together and agree on one strategic objective, like some sort of hive mind version of Mr Burns. Tens or hundreds of multi-million and billion dollar companies agreeing on one overarching strategy and following it to the letter... no chance. As a theme for a conference, or a thought leadership topic, sure. Hence why the whole 'Great Reset' thing has been latched onto as this singularity and blown out of all proportion simply to suit and attempt to validate a conspiracy rooted narrative.

So conspiracy weeds are relevant here – you don't always have to be fully entangled to be influenced.

COVID – I think this is a classic example of giving governments too much credit. They basically just copied each other, and even then not all implementation has been the same, far from it. Further, in a globalised world it's kind of to be expected – follow the leader applies here, mainly the USA and it's economic clout. Not to mention the politics and trade ties that probably create issues for anyone lower down the chain to to change tack too much.

I just don't buy the whole 'let's all do the same thing to sinister ends' nonsense. It's too simplistic and conveniently fits the usual weeds based narratives.

Again, I'm not saying some element of collusion doesn't occur, just to nowhere near the degree often espoused on here.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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BlueJay Flag UK 02 Jun 22 12.49am

Originally posted by W12

Something we can agree on for different reasons

On this topic he holds perfectly sound views. Firstly that the justification for sending many tens of thousands of troops into Ukraine to remove 'neo nazis' is a transparently ridiculous argument few would believe.. and secondly that arming a people besieged by their neighbour, rather than let said invader run riot throughout their entire country is a decent stance to hold. The idea that it's clear that letting them run riot with ease makes us objectively 'safer' is, I will politely say, very debatable. In my view it would simply embolden Russia, and throw a people to the wolves. It's the way of the coward.

You've gone so all in that, much like the Kremlin view, every Ukranian who opposes the invasion of their country is some kind of neo nazi in the making, and basically everyone but Russia is to blame for this whole affair. As I say, unfortunately you had and have no previous record on here of having any interest in combatting 'neo nazi' ideology, characters or their acolytes until it was useful to you to paint an entire nation in that light.

Edited by BlueJay (02 Jun 2022 1.05am)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 02 Jun 22 12.55am Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

It's like you just ignored all I wrote.

What happened in 2009 doesn't even touch the floor of the QE from 2020.

But cool, you call it poppycock and you can just dismiss it.

You are correct re. amount of QE exploding during COVID but looking at the available information I simply cannot agree that it is the main driver of the current meteoric rise.

• Supply constraints due to lockdowns and backlogs (building materials, anyone?)
• Russian energy being effectively cut off in a matter of weeks
• UK side, electrical interconnector going offline
• A candidate led jobs market
• Fast approaching food constraints because of Russian blockades

Plus many more. It features, but it's just not the main driver.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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Stirlingsays Flag 02 Jun 22 1.06am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

You are correct re. amount of QE exploding during COVID but looking at the available information I simply cannot agree that it is the main driver of the current meteoric rise.

• Supply constraints due to lockdowns and backlogs (building materials, anyone?)
• Russian energy being effectively cut off in a matter of weeks
• UK side, electrical interconnector going offline
• A candidate led jobs market
• Fast approaching food constraints because of Russian blockades

Plus many more. It features, but it's just not the main driver.

All of those aspects of course factor but most of those are transitory in nature and/or yet to come into force. Seemingly unlike your good self I don't see a quick move down to 3 percent for years. So I'm afraid we will just have to disagree on what the main factor is.....and I take no pleasure in thinking inflation is going to get significantly worse.

This ridiculous cold war is making things much worse globally.


Edited by Stirlingsays (02 Jun 2022 1.23am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays Flag 02 Jun 22 3.36am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

I'm hearing a lot about the disillusionment and low morale of Russian soldiers. Is that true on a significant basis? Are there videos of troops saying this? I don't know.

However, what I do know is that the mainstream media is not giving a balanced picture of this war. It's not talking about nor showing...for example, the many videos made by Ukrainian troops who are low on morale and complaining. That actually exists but isn't being talked about.....is this really how the fourth estate is meant to behave?

For proof of this I will provide this link that evidences the behaviour of our mainstream media and its omissions when reporting and actual videos of real troops on the ground talking about conditions and morale.

[Link]

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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W12 02 Jun 22 4.45am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You, along with the little group here that take this line, are seriously confused. The WEF is not, and never has been, where some mysterious power exists that directs governments what they must do. It is what it says on the tin. It's a forum where ideas are exchanged between governments, business and interest groups. It's a recognition of the fact that common problems are more effectively tackled together, than separately. Nothing is, or ever could be, decided there. Political representatives report back to their country's politicians, who then need to decide whether to embrace recommendations, or not. Business leaders report back to their Boards, and shareholders, on what they have learned and how best to react to it. Interest groups seek to influence the others.

This is all an extremely healthy way of ensuring a co-ordinated response to problems which could otherwise have the potential to overwhelm us.

To imagine all of this is done by a sinister group whose sole purpose is personal enrichment, is so transparently impractical I fail to see how any intelligent person could believe it.

It is a blatant example of a conspiracy theory designed to undermine our confidence in our way of international cooperation in today's interconnected world. Just pause for a moment and consider who might profit from spreading such concepts around, and how they might do it. For therein lies the answer to this confusion. The internet is a force for much good, but also the source of a great deal of harm.

OK, so please explain these comments from the leader of said group.

Edited by W12 (02 Jun 2022 4.46am)

 

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W12 02 Jun 22 5.08am

Originally posted by BlueJay

On this topic he holds perfectly sound views. Firstly that the justification for sending many tens of thousands of troops into Ukraine to remove 'neo nazis' is a transparently ridiculous argument few would believe.. and secondly that arming a people besieged by their neighbour, rather than let said invader run riot throughout their entire country is a decent stance to hold. The idea that it's clear that letting them run riot with ease makes us objectively 'safer' is, I will politely say, very debatable. In my view it would simply embolden Russia, and throw a people to the wolves. It's the way of the coward.

You've gone so all in that, much like the Kremlin view, every Ukranian who opposes the invasion of their country is some kind of neo nazi in the making, and basically everyone but Russia is to blame for this whole affair. As I say, unfortunately you had and have no previous record on here of having any interest in combatting 'neo nazi' ideology, characters or their acolytes until it was useful to you to paint an entire nation in that light.

Edited by BlueJay (02 Jun 2022 1.05am)

You, either intentionally or otherwise, conflate the view that nazis (I don’t think there is much “neo” about them) are in control of the Ukraine and are a major problem in the military (before the war this was well known and undisputed) and the view that all Ukrainians are nazis which is ridiculous especially as many Ukranians see themselves as Russian. At the same time you ignore my main problem with all this is that arming these people is just extending a war Ukraine simply cannot win and thereby getting many said Ukranians killed for no good reason and that’s leaving aside the potential for expanding this conflict into other countries to a potential WW3.

This war has turned into a massive slaughter mainly of forcibly conscripted Ukranians as the regime refuses to negotiate with Russia. The Russian military dwarves Ukrains and is grinding out an inexorable victory in Donbas. This is now obvious. You also ignore any historical context. At the same time you are somehow trying to insinuate I have nazi sympathy’s and am a coward for holding views that do not follow the corporate media narrative.

[Link]

Edited by W12 (02 Jun 2022 5.20am)

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards georgenorman Flag 02 Jun 22 6.53am Send a Private Message to georgenorman Add georgenorman as a friend

Originally posted by W12


You, either intentionally or otherwise, conflate the view that nazis (I don’t think there is much “neo” about them) are in control of the Ukraine and are a major problem in the military (before the war this was well known and undisputed) and the view that all Ukrainians are nazis which is ridiculous especially as many Ukranians see themselves as Russian. At the same time you ignore my main problem with all this is that arming these people is just extending a war Ukraine simply cannot win and thereby getting many said Ukranians killed for no good reason and that’s leaving aside the potential for expanding this conflict into other countries to a potential WW3.

This war has turned into a massive slaughter mainly of forcibly conscripted Ukranians as the regime refuses to negotiate with Russia. The Russian military dwarves Ukrains and is grinding out an inexorable victory in Donbas. This is now obvious. You also ignore any historical context. At the same time you are somehow trying to insinuate I have nazi sympathy’s and am a coward for holding views that do not follow the corporate media narrative.

[Link]

Edited by W12 (02 Jun 2022 5.20am)

Russia has invaded another country without provocation from that country. You say Ukarine refuses to negotiate - negotiate what? By your 'logic' we should simply have 'negoitated' with Hilter and given up our country to him to supposedly save lives. Napoleonic wars - don't fight Bonaparte, just let him take over all of Europe and let him put one of his relations in charge of Britain. Spanish Armarda - just let them sail in, it saves lives. Putin's actions are similar to Hitlers, he talks like a fascist, he acts like a fascist, he rules like a fascist. You want him to win in Ukraine, you support a fascist. You back all this up with various absurd conspiracy theories and say those who see and state the obvious are following the 'corporate media narrative'. As Orwell said: 'Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.'

Edited by georgenorman (02 Jun 2022 6.55am)

 

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W12 02 Jun 22 7.53am

Originally posted by georgenorman

Russia has invaded another country without provocation from that country. You say Ukarine refuses to negotiate - negotiate what? By your 'logic' we should simply have 'negoitated' with Hilter and given up our country to him to supposedly save lives. Napoleonic wars - don't fight Bonaparte, just let him take over all of Europe and let him put one of his relations in charge of Britain. Spanish Armarda - just let them sail in, it saves lives. Putin's actions are similar to Hitlers, he talks like a fascist, he acts like a fascist, he rules like a fascist. You want him to win in Ukraine, you support a fascist. You back all this up with various absurd conspiracy theories and say those who see and state the obvious are following the 'corporate media narrative'. As Orwell said: 'Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.'

Edited by georgenorman (02 Jun 2022 6.55am)

This is clearly untrue and invalidates all of your other statements.

Even the establishment / partisan New York Times is now admitting this.

 

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