isis

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Page 26 of 85 < 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 >

legaleagle 03 Sep 14 7.42pm
. Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 7.43pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle

03 Sep 14 7.42pm

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 7.43pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle 03 Sep 14 7.45pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Sep 2014 10.58am Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.31am The "change" or "influence" that is needed here is to somehow seek to reclaim the "hearts and minds" of those of our fellow citizens who have fallen for this ideology. That is the "difference" we could make...ISIS has some thousands of "soldiers" who have flocked to join it from other countries...Their potential influence would be weakened without such support (and funding/logistical assistance) from elsewhere... Plus, we cannot entirely overlook the trans-national and trans-regional nature of the ideology in question...It would be foolhardy (without falling into the trap of mass demonisation) to say there is no potential for direct "blow back" here in the UK in the future... Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.37am) I'm not sure that viable, the hearts and minds thing needs to really be utilised to choke off the development of support. Its a real issue where increasing isolation and targeting of the muslim community for acts they aren't responsible for, results in the generation of fear, anger leading to a radicalisation process. Groups like Britian First, as well as policy discussion that can be seen as specifically targeting the muslim population (ban the burka etc) don't actually help. They breed alienation and the sense of injustice and helplessness that are key factors in radicalisation. Boris Johnsons ideas for example would mean essentially anyone who travelled to syria could be considered, including those who worked with nationalist rebels, relief groups, medial support etc. The problem is that once radicalised, and individual has often taken a step over a line that cannot be returned from, even if you wanted to. You're trapped, because its a choice between continuing the 'cause' or spending the rest of your life in maximum security prison (not to mention the possibility of torture). That said at least one would be suicide bomber in the UK had a change of heart, and went over to become an intelligence asset (and spent 10 years 'in prison' - likely untrue in the traditional sense). Of course some 'threats' you have to leave in place, regardless of what the media like to crow about Radical Preacher, because they're rich intelligence sources. Young men have always been attracted to extreme causes, from the national front to the communist party to the IRA and UVF, for a number of reasons. What we need to do is identify why, and act to prevent those factors that start the initial process of isolation, alienation and marginalisation in society. Yes, and winning over hearts and minds (in a positive way) is a key part of assisting the process...making people feel they have a stake in the liberal democratic "system" (for all its faults). and seeing many muslim community members, who are rightly concerned about human rights issues, actively taking a stand, like the fatwa this week (and just like some Jews within the Jewish community re Gaza) re ISIS, just like the many thousands who understandably and perfectly reasonably have publically made a stand re Gaza in recent weeks,in my view, would be likely to aid that process(both within and outside the muslim community) We must not demonise and we must focus on inclusiveness. But, equally, we must shun the danger of shying away from criticising negatives...
Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle

03 Sep 14 7.45pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Sep 2014 10.58am

Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.31am

The "change" or "influence" that is needed here is to somehow seek to reclaim the "hearts and minds" of those of our fellow citizens who have fallen for this ideology. That is the "difference" we could make...ISIS has some thousands of "soldiers" who have flocked to join it from other countries...Their potential influence would be weakened without such support (and funding/logistical assistance) from elsewhere...

Plus, we cannot entirely overlook the trans-national and trans-regional nature of the ideology in question...It would be foolhardy (without falling into the trap of mass demonisation) to say there is no potential for direct "blow back" here in the UK in the future...

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 9.37am)

I'm not sure that viable, the hearts and minds thing needs to really be utilised to choke off the development of support. Its a real issue where increasing isolation and targeting of the muslim community for acts they aren't responsible for, results in the generation of fear, anger leading to a radicalisation process. Groups like Britian First, as well as policy discussion that can be seen as specifically targeting the muslim population (ban the burka etc) don't actually help. They breed alienation and the sense of injustice and helplessness that are key factors in radicalisation.

Boris Johnsons ideas for example would mean essentially anyone who travelled to syria could be considered, including those who worked with nationalist rebels, relief groups, medial support etc.

The problem is that once radicalised, and individual has often taken a step over a line that cannot be returned from, even if you wanted to. You're trapped, because its a choice between continuing the 'cause' or spending the rest of your life in maximum security prison (not to mention the possibility of torture). That said at least one would be suicide bomber in the UK had a change of heart, and went over to become an intelligence asset (and spent 10 years 'in prison' - likely untrue in the traditional sense).

Of course some 'threats' you have to leave in place, regardless of what the media like to crow about Radical Preacher, because they're rich intelligence sources. Young men have always been attracted to extreme causes, from the national front to the communist party to the IRA and UVF, for a number of reasons. What we need to do is identify why, and act to prevent those factors that start the initial process of isolation, alienation and marginalisation in society.

Yes, and winning over hearts and minds (in a positive way) is a key part of assisting the process...making people feel they have a stake in the liberal democratic "system" (for all its faults).

and seeing many muslim community members, who are rightly concerned about human rights issues, actively taking a stand, like the fatwa this week (and just like some Jews within the Jewish community re Gaza) re ISIS, just like the many thousands who understandably and perfectly reasonably have publically made a stand re Gaza in recent weeks,in my view, would be likely to aid that process(both within and outside the muslim community)

We must not demonise and we must focus on inclusiveness. But, equally, we must shun the danger of shying away from criticising negatives...

Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle 03 Sep 14 8.05pm
Food for thought as to whether some common perceptions (including some I have previously expressed) re jihadists in the UK are valid... [Link]
Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle

03 Sep 14 8.05pm

Food for thought as to whether some common perceptions (including some I have previously expressed) re jihadists in the UK are valid...

[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself Matataland 03 Sep 14 8.22pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Sep 2014 6.45pm Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 4.10pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Sep 2014 12.33pm Some examples of condemnation from Google searches [Link] British Muslim Leaders issue Fatwa against Britains joining Jihadist groups. [Link] British Muslim condemnation of the murder of James Foley [Link] An article on belief net about the whole 'muslims are silent' thing. [Link] Muslim condemnation of the murder of Lee Rigby [Link] Police protecting thousands of muslims gathered to condemn the murder of Lee Rigby [Link] Bristol Muslims condemn the murder of Lee Rigby [Link] UK wide sermon, first of its kind, in which Muslims across the UK condemn child grooming. [Link] Muslim Peace conference condemns terrorism. All from the first page of google searches. Even the Daily Mail seems to report these stories. Wonder why they never make national news.... I think the 'fatwa' is a load of hot air. It doesn't say anywhere in that article that the Muslim 'leaders' are urging the communities to help authorities root out extremists. I go back to what I have said previously. There is no widespread reaction in the Muslim community to extremism. Nothing posted above has changed me a view. A few pockets of people demonstrating and campaigning for change but not a widespread attempt to work with the British government to rid themselves of the cancer in their communities. Alternatively you could use google.... [Link] [Link] And you could use it more effectively. One article is from 2004 and the other from 2007. Hardly a groundswell of support for rooting out the evils in their community. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself

Matataland 03 Sep 14 8.22pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Sep 2014 6.45pm

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 4.10pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 03 Sep 2014 12.33pm

Some examples of condemnation from Google searches

[Link]

British Muslim Leaders issue Fatwa against Britains joining Jihadist groups.

[Link]

British Muslim condemnation of the murder of James Foley

[Link]

An article on belief net about the whole 'muslims are silent' thing.

[Link]

Muslim condemnation of the murder of Lee Rigby

[Link]

Police protecting thousands of muslims gathered to condemn the murder of Lee Rigby

[Link]

Bristol Muslims condemn the murder of Lee Rigby

[Link]

UK wide sermon, first of its kind, in which Muslims across the UK condemn child grooming.

[Link]

Muslim Peace conference condemns terrorism.

All from the first page of google searches. Even the Daily Mail seems to report these stories. Wonder why they never make national news....

I think the 'fatwa' is a load of hot air. It doesn't say anywhere in that article that the Muslim 'leaders' are urging the communities to help authorities root out extremists.

I go back to what I have said previously. There is no widespread reaction in the Muslim community to extremism. Nothing posted above has changed me a view. A few pockets of people demonstrating and campaigning for change but not a widespread attempt to work with the British government to rid themselves of the cancer in their communities.

Alternatively you could use google....

[Link]

And you could use it more effectively.

One article is from 2004 and the other from 2007.

Hardly a groundswell of support for rooting out the evils in their community.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle 03 Sep 14 8.39pm
This is dated yesterday... [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm)
Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle

03 Sep 14 8.39pm

This is dated yesterday...

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm)

Alert a moderator to this post

goodersgold Hastings 03 Sep 14 8.47pm
Quote Alexi_the_Eagle at 03 Sep 2014 2.06pm Quote eaglesforward at 03 Sep 2014 12.45pm Mr E Powell was correct we have rivers of blood in England, you cannot have a faith of other people arrive in their droves to live in peace , soon or later they will put there faith on you. At the moment Christ has lost the war, thanks to the English governments of past.Take a look at Japan did they allow this to happen to please the Muslims. I'm sure the BNP would pleased to hear your right-wing rhetoric. Zzzzzzz bore off . It's people like you as to why the country is in the mess it is with the b******isation of our once great island. I couldn't care what I'm called or labeled anymore as I know what I am personally but immigration and asylum have become a sick joke. The world was a mess but his hair was perfect!
Alert a moderator to this post

goodersgold

Hastings 03 Sep 14 8.47pm

Quote Alexi_the_Eagle at 03 Sep 2014 2.06pm

Quote eaglesforward at 03 Sep 2014 12.45pm

Mr E Powell was correct we have rivers of blood in England, you cannot have a faith of other people arrive in their droves to live in peace , soon or later they will put there faith on you. At the moment Christ has lost the war, thanks to the English governments of past.Take a look at Japan did they allow this to happen to please the Muslims.

I'm sure the BNP would pleased to hear your right-wing rhetoric.

Zzzzzzz bore off .
It's people like you as to why the country is in the mess it is with the b******isation of our once great island.
I couldn't care what I'm called or labeled anymore as I know what I am personally but immigration and asylum have become a sick joke.

The world was a mess but his hair was perfect!

Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself Matataland 03 Sep 14 8.51pm
Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 8.39pm This is dated yesterday... [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm) Legaleagle - I declare a 'fatwa' against Brighton and Hove Albion FC. PM me when, as a direct result of this 'fatwa', the evil of Brighton and Hove Albion is crushed. FYI - both 'fatwas' will have the same effect, I.e., regarded as hot air by most people. Edited by matt_himself (03 Sep 2014 8.52pm) "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself

Matataland 03 Sep 14 8.51pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 8.39pm

This is dated yesterday...

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm)

Legaleagle - I declare a 'fatwa' against Brighton and Hove Albion FC.

PM me when, as a direct result of this 'fatwa', the evil of Brighton and Hove Albion is crushed.

FYI - both 'fatwas' will have the same effect, I.e., regarded as hot air by most people.

Edited by matt_himself (03 Sep 2014 8.52pm)

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself Matataland 03 Sep 14 8.59pm
Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 8.39pm This is dated yesterday... [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm) I have also declared a 'fatwa' against: Commuter Trains; Awkward first dates; Chavs; The way Palace played under Peter Taylor; The c* who sings 'one time' in 'Killing me Softly' by the Fugees' Cold sores; Blisters; TV advertisements; Feeling a bit peeky; The smell of urine; I will do nothing more on this other than type this post. Let's see how the World has fing changed in the morning. I.e., I can say anything in a 'fatwa' and changes diddly f**ing squat. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself

Matataland 03 Sep 14 8.59pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 8.39pm

This is dated yesterday...

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm)

I have also declared a 'fatwa' against:

Commuter Trains;
Awkward first dates;
Chavs;
The way Palace played under Peter Taylor;
The c*** who sings 'one time' in 'Killing me Softly' by the Fugees'
Cold sores;
Blisters;
TV advertisements;
Feeling a bit peeky;
The smell of urine;

I will do nothing more on this other than type this post.

Let's see how the World has f***ing changed in the morning.

I.e., I can say anything in a 'fatwa' and changes diddly f***ing squat.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle 03 Sep 14 9.03pm
One of the beauties of living in a liberal democracy is that you are perfectly entitled to an opinion, however much I might find it to be without merit. Though, in this instance,I might personally be more persuaded to accord it a degree of potency if it indicated some actual understanding of what a fatwa is. We are discussing important issues. By all means make a reasoned argument about whether you think the fatwa will be of any lasting value...but pleeeaaaseee....
Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle

03 Sep 14 9.03pm

One of the beauties of living in a liberal democracy is that you are perfectly entitled to an opinion, however much I might find it to be without merit. Though, in this instance,I might personally be more persuaded to accord it a degree of potency if it indicated some actual understanding of what a fatwa is. We are discussing important issues. By all means make a reasoned argument about whether you think the fatwa will be of any lasting value...but pleeeaaaseee....

Alert a moderator to this post

Buzzcock In an underground lair near Bright... 03 Sep 14 9.06pm
Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.59pm Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 8.39pm This is dated yesterday... [Link] Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm) I have also declared a 'fatwa' against: The c*** who sings 'one time' in 'Killing me Softly' by the Fugees' I get the urge to smash my radio every time I hear the sitar riff. Fatwa on the sitarist. In the woods there grew a tree. And a fine fine tree was he.
Alert a moderator to this post

Buzzcock

In an underground lair near Bright... 03 Sep 14 9.06pm

Quote matt_himself at 03 Sep 2014 8.59pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 8.39pm

This is dated yesterday...

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (03 Sep 2014 8.47pm)

I have also declared a 'fatwa' against:
The c*** who sings 'one time' in 'Killing me Softly' by the Fugees'

I get the urge to smash my radio every time I hear the sitar riff. Fatwa on the sitarist.

In the woods there grew a tree. And a fine fine tree was he.

Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself Matataland 03 Sep 14 9.07pm
Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.03pm One of the beauties of living in a liberal democracy is that you are perfectly entitled to an opinion, however much I might find it to be without merit. Though, in this instance,I might personally be more persuaded to accord it a degree of potency if it indicated some actual understanding of what a fatwa is. We are discussing important issues. By all means make a reasoned argument about whether you think the fatwa will be of any lasting value...but pleeeaaaseee.... Bollocks. You know what I imply is correct. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself

Matataland 03 Sep 14 9.07pm

Quote legaleagle at 03 Sep 2014 9.03pm

Bollocks. You know what I imply is correct.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle 03 Sep 14 9.09pm
Quote goodersgold at 03 Sep 2014 8.47pm Quote Alexi_the_Eagle at 03 Sep 2014 2.06pm Quote eaglesforward at 03 Sep 2014 12.45pm Mr E Powell was correct we have rivers of blood in England, you cannot have a faith of other people arrive in their droves to live in peace , soon or later they will put there faith on you. At the moment Christ has lost the war, thanks to the English governments of past.Take a look at Japan did they allow this to happen to please the Muslims. I'm sure the BNP would pleased to hear your right-wing rhetoric. Zzzzzzz bore off . It's people like you as to why the country is in the mess it is with the b******isation of our once great island. I couldn't care what I'm called or labeled anymore as I know what I am personally but immigration and asylum have become a sick joke. Yes, for example,without immigration, we'd be much less of a "sick joke" without the following "immigrants" to the UK (or their descendants) in our 25 this season: Yannick Bolasie Fraizer Campbell Marouane Chamakh Damien Delaney Kevin Doyle Zeki Fryers Dwight Gayle Adlene Guedioura Brede Hangeland Mile Jedinak Adrian Mariappa Paddy McCarthy Jason Puncheon Julian Speroni Jerome Thomas Wilfried Zaha
Alert a moderator to this post

legaleagle

03 Sep 14 9.09pm

Quote goodersgold at 03 Sep 2014 8.47pm

Quote Alexi_the_Eagle at 03 Sep 2014 2.06pm

Quote eaglesforward at 03 Sep 2014 12.45pm

I'm sure the BNP would pleased to hear your right-wing rhetoric.

Yes, for example,without immigration, we'd be much less of a "sick joke" without the following "immigrants" to the UK (or their descendants) in our 25 this season:

Yannick Bolasie
Fraizer Campbell
Marouane Chamakh
Damien Delaney
Kevin Doyle
Zeki Fryers
Dwight Gayle
Adlene Guedioura
Brede Hangeland
Mile Jedinak
Adrian Mariappa
Paddy McCarthy
Jason Puncheon
Julian Speroni
Jerome Thomas
Wilfried Zaha

Alert a moderator to this post

Page 26 of 85 < 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website - The Holmesdale Online

isis

Site Map

New users

Existing users

Sponsors