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Israel / Palestine

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legaleagle Flag 12 Jul 14 2.29pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Jul 2014 11.25am

Quote Cucking Funt at 12 Jul 2014 11.16am

Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Jul 2014 11.04am

Quote Eagle_SA at 12 Jul 2014 9.37am

This is a hugely difficult issue to deal with, especially as the Isralies love to accuse anyone who criticises them as being anti-semitic.

In essence the situation is the legacy of yet another British f@ckup.

After Israel was given independence, having fought a hard battle against the British, they established modern day Israel and did so on the premise that the lands were unoccupied. A stance they still hold on to today.

The truth is that Palestine has been continuously habited by the Palestinians for 3000 years and there's plenty of historical evidence to support this.

The Palestinians were cooperative with the Israelis to a point with many arguing for a two nation settlement. Sadly the Israelis want none of that.

Skipping a lot of history, what you're left with is one nation fighting for its land back (the Palestinians) against the occupiers (Israel) who are increasingly hostile towards the locals.

The cartoon below is a great example of how the Israelis view the world's media coverage of the situation whilst the truth is that most of the media is pro-Israel.

For a good read on the subject take a look at Once Upon A Country: A Palestinian Life by Sari Nusseibeh
[Link]


Israel didn't 'fight' the British. You are talking about the actions of terrorists and extremists who couldn't wait. Their actions weren't endorsed by the Israeli majority.


Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2014 11.05am)


But those 'terrorists' ended up being the government of Israel - Begin, Ben Gurion etc.

Ben-Gurion never agreed with killing British soldiers....Begin....Well yes.

Regardless, Israel didn't 'fight' Britain....The majority never agreed with the bombings.


The "mainstream "left" Jewish militia grouping in British mandate times in the 1940's was the Haganah. This group had majority popular support amongst the Jewish community in Palestine.They fought with the British in World War 2.After the war, they carried out military operations against the British aimed at getting the British to drop restrictions on Jewish immigration and to quit Palestine. Their political heirs were/are the Labour Party which governed Israel from independence to 1977 but has largely been a minority since, and of which Rabin was a member (Camp David talks).

The more extreme group was the Irgun. This was a group of the "right". It carried out indiscriminate bombings against the British.Its political heirs were/are the Likud party, the party of Begin and the present Prime Minister, Netanyahu.

 

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Eagle_SA Flag Just outside Cape Town 12 Jul 14 3.09pm Send a Private Message to Eagle_SA Add Eagle_SA as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Jul 2014 11.25am

Quote Cucking Funt at 12 Jul 2014 11.16am

Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Jul 2014 11.04am

Quote Eagle_SA at 12 Jul 2014 9.37am

This is a hugely difficult issue to deal with, especially as the Isralies love to accuse anyone who criticises them as being anti-semitic.

In essence the situation is the legacy of yet another British f@ckup.

After Israel was given independence, having fought a hard battle against the British, they established modern day Israel and did so on the premise that the lands were unoccupied. A stance they still hold on to today.

The truth is that Palestine has been continuously habited by the Palestinians for 3000 years and there's plenty of historical evidence to support this.

The Palestinians were cooperative with the Israelis to a point with many arguing for a two nation settlement. Sadly the Israelis want none of that.

Skipping a lot of history, what you're left with is one nation fighting for its land back (the Palestinians) against the occupiers (Israel) who are increasingly hostile towards the locals.

The cartoon below is a great example of how the Israelis view the world's media coverage of the situation whilst the truth is that most of the media is pro-Israel.

For a good read on the subject take a look at Once Upon A Country: A Palestinian Life by Sari Nusseibeh
[Link]


Israel didn't 'fight' the British. You are talking about the actions of terrorists and extremists who couldn't wait. Their actions weren't endorsed by the Israeli majority.


Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2014 11.05am)


But those 'terrorists' ended up being the government of Israel - Begin, Ben Gurion etc.

Ben-Gurion never agreed with killing British soldiers....Begin....Well yes.

Regardless, Israel didn't 'fight' Britain....The majority never agreed with the bombings.

In the same way the IRA never fought Britain. But just like the terrorist organisation that was the IRA, so the Israelis set out on a path of violence to attain their desires. The King David Hotel bombing being a great example.

Thing is, in the current madness 100 Palestinians have died with no Israeli deaths. It hardly seems like a fair fight.

 


And I see signs of half remembered days, I hear bells that chime in strange familiar ways

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legaleagle Flag 12 Jul 14 3.20pm

Fair point in terms of the disproportionate response but its not for want of trying...rather, the disparity in military capability that enables the Israelis to shoot down missiles. in the air.

Best not to completely overlook the random kidnapping and brutal murder of 3 youths (still no arrests) that kicked the latest round off

 

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legaleagle Flag 12 Jul 14 3.26pm

Quote Eagle_SA at 12 Jul 2014 3.09pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Jul 2014 11.25am

Quote Cucking Funt at 12 Jul 2014 11.16am

Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Jul 2014 11.04am

Quote Eagle_SA at 12 Jul 2014 9.37am

This is a hugely difficult issue to deal with, especially as the Isralies love to accuse anyone who criticises them as being anti-semitic.

In essence the situation is the legacy of yet another British f@ckup.

After Israel was given independence, having fought a hard battle against the British, they established modern day Israel and did so on the premise that the lands were unoccupied. A stance they still hold on to today.

The truth is that Palestine has been continuously habited by the Palestinians for 3000 years and there's plenty of historical evidence to support this.

The Palestinians were cooperative with the Israelis to a point with many arguing for a two nation settlement. Sadly the Israelis want none of that.

Skipping a lot of history, what you're left with is one nation fighting for its land back (the Palestinians) against the occupiers (Israel) who are increasingly hostile towards the locals.

The cartoon below is a great example of how the Israelis view the world's media coverage of the situation whilst the truth is that most of the media is pro-Israel.

For a good read on the subject take a look at Once Upon A Country: A Palestinian Life by Sari Nusseibeh
[Link]


Israel didn't 'fight' the British. You are talking about the actions of terrorists and extremists who couldn't wait. Their actions weren't endorsed by the Israeli majority.


Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2014 11.05am)


But those 'terrorists' ended up being the government of Israel - Begin, Ben Gurion etc.

Ben-Gurion never agreed with killing British soldiers....Begin....Well yes.

Regardless, Israel didn't 'fight' Britain....The majority never agreed with the bombings.

In the same way the IRA never fought Britain. But just like the terrorist organisation that was the IRA, so the Israelis set out on a path of violence to attain their desires. The King David Hotel bombing being a great example.

Thing is, in the current madness 100 Palestinians have died with no Israeli deaths. It hardly seems like a fair fight.


Just on a point of historical accuracy, to minimise the risks of unnecessarily demonising a whole nationality (just like the Catholic community in the north of Ireland). The "Israelis" didn't exist at the time of the King David bombing.It was an act of terrorism (agree with you re the Provo analogy) by the minority Irgun/Stern Gang in Palestine,extreme right wing faction, condemned by the majority and resulted in a formal split between the Haganah and the Stern Gang/Irgun.

 

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Kermit8 Flag Hevon 12 Jul 14 6.53pm Send a Private Message to Kermit8 Add Kermit8 as a friend

Nearly half the population in Gaza are children plus there are a few thousand Christians out of the 1.6mill.

Not quite sure how those 700,000 deserve what is happening to them but I am sure some of the pro-Israeli trolls on here can enlighten me.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


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Stirlingsays Flag 12 Jul 14 6.58pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote legaleagle at 12 Jul 2014 2.29pm

The "mainstream "left" Jewish militia grouping in British mandate times in the 1940's was the Haganah. This group had majority popular support amongst the Jewish community in Palestine.They fought with the British in World War 2.After the war, they carried out military operations against the British aimed at getting the British to drop restrictions on Jewish immigration and to quit Palestine. Their political heirs were/are the Labour Party which governed Israel from independence to 1977 but has largely been a minority since, and of which Rabin was a member (Camp David talks).

The more extreme group was the Irgun. This was a group of the "right". It carried out indiscriminate bombings against the British.Its political heirs were/are the Likud party, the party of Begin and the present Prime Minister, Netanyahu.

I know.

I answered that contention that Israel fought Britain. It's a fact that they didn't. There was never majority popular support for killing the British.

You say the Haganah carried out military operations against the British. As I understand it they were against killing British soldiers. But they supported select operations outside of that.

The Haganah organized demonstrations against British immigration quotas and smuggled in immigrants to beat the quotas.

Their leader Ben-Gurion simply just didn't go as far as supporting the killing of British solders. It's a matter of record.

After Lord Moyne's assassination Haganah worked with the British in combating the Irgun and Lehi.

Do you know of any Haganan operations that saw them 'fight' British soldiers then?

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2014 6.59pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays Flag 12 Jul 14 7.05pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote Kermit8 at 12 Jul 2014 6.53pm

Nearly half the population in Gaza are children plus there are a few thousand Christians out of the 1.6mill.

Not quite sure how those 700,000 deserve what is happening to them but I am sure some of the pro-Israeli trolls on here can enlighten me.


Do the vast majority of them deserve it? No.....But all those that voted in Hamas in Gaza have basically enabled this conflict and all the others since that vote.

Compare with the previous PA controlled West Bank.....Not much action went on there.

But does anyone deserve to die in a bombing for actions that they didn't commit.....No, they don't.

But there is little justice in war......And Israel are at war with Hamas.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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legaleagle Flag 12 Jul 14 7.37pm

Quote Kermit8 at 12 Jul 2014 6.53pm

Nearly half the population in Gaza are children plus there are a few thousand Christians out of the 1.6mill.

Not quite sure how those 700,000 deserve what is happening to them but I am sure some of the pro-Israeli trolls on here can enlighten me.

c12,000 Christians in Gaza and c200,000 in the West Bank.

The population of Gaza don't deserve what is presently happening in any way. Simples. That doesn't make the kidnapping and killing out of the blue of the Jewish kids which kicked off the present round any less regrettable. Trying to inject an iota of balance and remove a degree of demonization does not automatically equate to being a "troll" or being "pro-Israel".


 

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legaleagle Flag 12 Jul 14 8.14pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Jul 2014 6.58pm

[
I know.

I answered that contention that Israel fought Britain. It's a fact that they didn't. There was never majority popular support for killing the British.

You say the Haganah carried out military operations against the British. As I understand it they were against killing British soldiers. But they supported select operations outside of that.

The Haganah organized demonstrations against British immigration quotas and smuggled in immigrants to beat the quotas.

Their leader Ben-Gurion simply just didn't go as far as supporting the killing of British solders. It's a matter of record.

After Lord Moyne's assassination Haganah worked with the British in combating the Irgun and Lehi.

Do you know of any Haganan operations that saw them 'fight' British soldiers then?

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jul 2014 6.59pm)

You are right that the Haganah's direct military role was largely confined to sabotage against British military "assets" rather than attacking military personnel or British civil administration personnel. For example,it blew up British radar installations at Haifa, captured military vessels and raided British police force bases and military camps.

But, don't overlook that the Haganah in October 1945 entered into a pact with the Irgun and another extremist group,the Lehi, called the United Resistance. The United Resistance was committed to "military struggle" against British rule, and its operations were overseen by a leadership of four people, which included two Haganah members. All Irgun/Lehi operations were required to be submitted to the joint leadership for general pre-approval and the Haganah had a right of veto.

This ceased after the Stern Gang carried out the King David Hotel bombing.


 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 12 Jul 14 8.43pm

Big demo at the beeb today complaining about bias.

10501915_253403574853574_576119535652749994_n.jpg Attachment: 10501915_253403574853574_576119535652749994_n.jpg (61.72Kb)

 

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legaleagle Flag 12 Jul 14 9.05pm

When the Beeb gets criticism from both "sides" to a conflict, perhaps disappointed their take on things (which they each see as "objective"doesn't wholly predominate, it might just mean the BBC's coverage lives up to its Charter objectives.

In March 2014, the BBC’s internal watchdog, the BBC Trust, upheld a complaint against one of the corporation’s flagship news programmes, Radio 4's Today, for providing biased and misleading information in its reporting of Israel.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 12 Jul 14 9.13pm

[Link]

A bit of a depressing read this. I spent an afternoon in the company of the author of the piece, who is a lawyer who acts on behalf of imprisoned Palestine children, after he had spoken at an NUT conference. What he told me was truly shocking.

 

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