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palace_in_frogland In a broken dream 29 Dec 20 9.54pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I don't read 'right wing' sites Wisbech but well done for the dog whistle. Our country has decided to take back control of law making and the ability to trade with whom we like. The EU started as a trading block and has since began slowly voting itself more powers. Only the truly naive cannot see where that is heading. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Dec 2020 6.00pm) This quote from Macron shows where he thinks the future of the EU is heading; (my bold) "European unity and firmness have paid off. The agreement with the United Kingdom is essential to protect our citizens, our fishermen, our producers. We will make sure this is the case. Europe is moving forward and can look to the future, united, sovereign and strong."
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palace_in_frogland

In a broken dream 29 Dec 20 9.54pm

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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I don't read 'right wing' sites Wisbech but well done for the dog whistle.

Our country has decided to take back control of law making and the ability to trade with whom we like.
The EU started as a trading block and has since began slowly voting itself more powers. Only the truly naive cannot see where that is heading.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Dec 2020 6.00pm)

This quote from Macron shows where he thinks the future of the EU is heading; (my bold)

"European unity and firmness have paid off. The agreement with the United Kingdom is essential to protect our citizens, our fishermen, our producers.

We will make sure this is the case. Europe is moving forward and can look to the future, united, sovereign and strong."

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nead1 29 Dec 20 10.16pm
Actually Hrolf, without wishing to be pedantic, the EU did not start out as a trading bloc. It's origins were post WW2 as the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation - an agreement between France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands to control the production of iron and steel such that weapons supplies could never be built up again and lead to further conflict. Hence, its origins were all about creating and maintaining peace after the carnage of two world wars. This point is often forgotten but is absolutely fundamental to the founders of what has now become the EU. Certainly, it has grown significantly; initially to become to the EEC and now the EU but its founding principles are still a critical aspect and help to explain the significance of countries being willing to give up their own currencies and create the Euro . In admittedly rather narrow terms, peace has been maintained in western Europe and in this context alone it has clearly been a success.
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nead1

29 Dec 20 10.16pm

Actually Hrolf, without wishing to be pedantic, the EU did not start out as a trading bloc.

It's origins were post WW2 as the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation - an agreement between France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands to control the production of iron and steel such that weapons supplies could never be built up again and lead to further conflict.

Hence, its origins were all about creating and maintaining peace after the carnage of two world wars. This point is often forgotten but is absolutely fundamental to the founders of what has now become the EU. Certainly, it has grown significantly; initially to become to the EEC and now the EU but its founding principles are still a critical aspect and help to explain the significance of countries being willing to give up their own currencies and create the Euro .

In admittedly rather narrow terms, peace has been maintained in western Europe and in this context alone it has clearly been a success.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 20 10.38pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I don't read 'right wing' sites Wisbech but well done for the dog whistle. Our country has decided to take back control of law making and the ability to trade with whom we like. The EU started as a trading block and has since began slowly voting itself more powers. Only the truly naive cannot see where that is heading. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Dec 2020 6.00pm) OK, then what sites do you get your ideas from for they seem to accurately match those found on several? What real benefit accrues from "taking back control" of the kind of areas of law we delegated the detail of to the EU? All it does is encumber us with the laborious task of writing and administering things that we almost certainly would be doing anyway and will be continuing to do as we maintain the "level playing field". The most important issues were always in our hands. Subsidiarity being the key. This is, and always has been, a huge red herring which appeals only to emotion and not at all to reality. Where the EU is headed seems to me much more likely to be a looser arrangement than a tighter one. A two speed Europe has been discussed, in which a small northern group move closer, whilst the others don't. I think we may well see a multi-speed EU emerge where the Euro is abandoned everywhere other than the core, with everyone retaining the benefits to be gained from working together in some areas. I remain convinced that we would have been better off staying as a member and helping steer changes to our benefit. However, we didn't so now we will have to rejoin at a level which suits us on the best terms we can manage. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Dec 20 10.38pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I don't read 'right wing' sites Wisbech but well done for the dog whistle.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (29 Dec 2020 6.00pm)

OK, then what sites do you get your ideas from for they seem to accurately match those found on several?

What real benefit accrues from "taking back control" of the kind of areas of law we delegated the detail of to the EU? All it does is encumber us with the laborious task of writing and administering things that we almost certainly would be doing anyway and will be continuing to do as we maintain the "level playing field".

The most important issues were always in our hands. Subsidiarity being the key.

This is, and always has been, a huge red herring which appeals only to emotion and not at all to reality.

Where the EU is headed seems to me much more likely to be a looser arrangement than a tighter one. A two speed Europe has been discussed, in which a small northern group move closer, whilst the others don't. I think we may well see a multi-speed EU emerge where the Euro is abandoned everywhere other than the core, with everyone retaining the benefits to be gained from working together in some areas. I remain convinced that we would have been better off staying as a member and helping steer changes to our benefit. However, we didn't so now we will have to rejoin at a level which suits us on the best terms we can manage.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Matov 30 Dec 20 6.22am
Originally posted by nead1 Hence, its origins were all about creating and maintaining peace after the carnage of two world wars. This point is often forgotten but is absolutely fundamental to the founders of what has now become the EU. Certainly, it has grown significantly; initially to become to the EEC and now the EU but its founding principles are still a critical aspect and help to explain the significance of countries being willing to give up their own currencies and create the Euro . For 'creating and maintaining peace', read coming up with a mechanism to prevent Germany from starting yet another major European conflict given its predilection for invading other countries. And then, in an act of incredible self-harm, creating the Euro which effectively turns Germany back into the dominant European force that no longer needs its Panzers given it now has a perfectly good central bank in Frankfurt to do its bidding, allowing it to strangle democracy all over the Continent. Way to go Europe. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

30 Dec 20 6.22am

Originally posted by nead1

For 'creating and maintaining peace', read coming up with a mechanism to prevent Germany from starting yet another major European conflict given its predilection for invading other countries.

And then, in an act of incredible self-harm, creating the Euro which effectively turns Germany back into the dominant European force that no longer needs its Panzers given it now has a perfectly good central bank in Frankfurt to do its bidding, allowing it to strangle democracy all over the Continent.

Way to go Europe.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 30 Dec 20 7.02am
Originally posted by croydon proud I"m waiting another 2 days mate for all that lovely lolly coming our way, in boris we trust mate, in boris we trust! Why wait, hop over to Ireland and be a citizen of the world. It never ceases to amaze me how many fifth columnists love to suckle at a teat they so clearly dislike....then again, that's what fifth columnists do I suppose. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Dec 20 7.02am

Originally posted by croydon proud

I"m waiting another 2 days mate for all that lovely lolly coming our way, in boris we trust mate, in boris we trust!

Why wait, hop over to Ireland and be a citizen of the world.

It never ceases to amaze me how many fifth columnists love to suckle at a teat they so clearly dislike....then again, that's what fifth columnists do I suppose.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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The Dolphin 30 Dec 20 7.38am
Originally posted by Matov For 'creating and maintaining peace', read coming up with a mechanism to prevent Germany from starting yet another major European conflict given its predilection for invading other countries. And then, in an act of incredible self-harm, creating the Euro which effectively turns Germany back into the dominant European force that no longer needs its Panzers given it now has a perfectly good central bank in Frankfurt to do its bidding, allowing it to strangle democracy all over the Continent. Way to go Europe. Good post Matov! The EU has always been primarily about Germany first and France second - they don't really care much about the others - never have and never will. Remainers and Leavers will always think differently but that point is pretty much correct and should worry all other Nations still in the Union. Their economies have suffered because of lack of individual strength and they are now tied to the EU financially and can probably never leave. Had the EU stayed as a trading union only then it would be strong whilst allowing every nation their own sovereignty but Germany always seem to want to control everything to make it work in their favour. The truth appears to be that we (the majority anyway) wanted to leave and they wanted us to stay and that should show anyone what a great Union the UK really is! We will do well over the coming years albeit it might take longer now due to this wretched virus.
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The Dolphin

30 Dec 20 7.38am

Originally posted by Matov

For 'creating and maintaining peace', read coming up with a mechanism to prevent Germany from starting yet another major European conflict given its predilection for invading other countries.

Way to go Europe.

Good post Matov!
The EU has always been primarily about Germany first and France second - they don't really care much about the others - never have and never will.
Remainers and Leavers will always think differently but that point is pretty much correct and should worry all other Nations still in the Union.
Their economies have suffered because of lack of individual strength and they are now tied to the EU financially and can probably never leave.
Had the EU stayed as a trading union only then it would be strong whilst allowing every nation their own sovereignty but Germany always seem to want to control everything to make it work in their favour.
The truth appears to be that we (the majority anyway) wanted to leave and they wanted us to stay and that should show anyone what a great Union the UK really is!
We will do well over the coming years albeit it might take longer now due to this wretched virus.

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Matov 30 Dec 20 7.55am
Originally posted by The Dolphin Good post Matov! The EU has always been primarily about Germany first and France second - they don't really care much about the others - never have and never will. One of the oddities about it is that it could have been a an Anglo-French project. The actual distant roots of the current EU go back to the first world war when the convoy system was first introduced and there was talk of serious co-operation between the two countries militarily that continues to this day on a surprising level (for example at the moment the British are providing logistical support for French operations in Mali) that people are not made that aware of and I believe the new generation of French aircraft carriers will have the capacity to operate British F35's. One of the issues around our departure from the EU is that it does weaken its military capacity significantly given that it is only France that comes close to matching our spending and global operational capacity. On that level at least the UK and France did dominate the EU far more than Germany. There was also talk in 1940 of actually combining France and the UK into a single national entity by way of allowing France to continue as a sovereign nation in WW2. Nothing much came of it but the idea was given a level of serious discussion. Strange how history might have taken different turns. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

30 Dec 20 7.55am

Originally posted by The Dolphin

Good post Matov!
The EU has always been primarily about Germany first and France second - they don't really care much about the others - never have and never will.

One of the oddities about it is that it could have been a an Anglo-French project. The actual distant roots of the current EU go back to the first world war when the convoy system was first introduced and there was talk of serious co-operation between the two countries militarily that continues to this day on a surprising level (for example at the moment the British are providing logistical support for French operations in Mali) that people are not made that aware of and I believe the new generation of French aircraft carriers will have the capacity to operate British F35's. One of the issues around our departure from the EU is that it does weaken its military capacity significantly given that it is only France that comes close to matching our spending and global operational capacity. On that level at least the UK and France did dominate the EU far more than Germany.

There was also talk in 1940 of actually combining France and the UK into a single national entity by way of allowing France to continue as a sovereign nation in WW2. Nothing much came of it but the idea was given a level of serious discussion.

Strange how history might have taken different turns.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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Stirlingsays 30 Dec 20 8.52am
I supported Brexit and still do for several different reasons. However, I'm well aware, that like the election of Trump it went full force against the direction of political and economic globalism....which is precisely the path the monied elites wish to walk. So let no one fool themselves, the 'independent' victories achieved via Brexit will be gradually eroded and watered down by successive governments after Johnson....maybe even by Johnson himself in the years ahead.....along with demographic change the collective memory of a cohesive separate nation will also diminish and hence support for separation from the EU will also decline. Boy....that's depressing isn't it....Still, that's what I see when I take the rose tinted glasses off. The top elites (where real power sits) view nations and nationalism as anachronistic and as temporary structures for those of limited thinking. For them it does nothing but delay their vision for their rather weird mixture of financial corporatism/social communism. They know that they only need to wait out the deaths of older generations to slowly inch in these new structures. When you next have your Chinese take-away you can reflect upon the likelihood that the next twenty years....in Europe at least, will look more like their society than western ones of the past....well in governance terms...with the exception being that they are actually ethnocentric and will continue with Han dominance. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Dec 2020 11.00am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Dec 20 8.52am

I supported Brexit and still do for several different reasons.

However, I'm well aware, that like the election of Trump it went full force against the direction of political and economic globalism....which is precisely the path the monied elites wish to walk.

So let no one fool themselves, the 'independent' victories achieved via Brexit will be gradually eroded and watered down by successive governments after Johnson....maybe even by Johnson himself in the years ahead.....along with demographic change the collective memory of a cohesive separate nation will also diminish and hence support for separation from the EU will also decline.

Boy....that's depressing isn't it....Still, that's what I see when I take the rose tinted glasses off.

The top elites (where real power sits) view nations and nationalism as anachronistic and as temporary structures for those of limited thinking. For them it does nothing but delay their vision for their rather weird mixture of financial corporatism/social communism. They know that they only need to wait out the deaths of older generations to slowly inch in these new structures.

When you next have your Chinese take-away you can reflect upon the likelihood that the next twenty years....in Europe at least, will look more like their society than western ones of the past....well in governance terms...with the exception being that they are actually ethnocentric and will continue with Han dominance.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Dec 2020 11.00am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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kevlee born Wandsworth emigrated to Lanc... 30 Dec 20 10.52am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Why wait, hop over to Ireland and be a citizen of the world. It never ceases to amaze me how many fifth columnists love to suckle at a teat they so clearly dislike....then again, that's what fifth columnists do I suppose. I think you've been listening to too much Mark Francois and watching too much Dads Army! Following Palace since 25 Feb 1978
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kevlee

born Wandsworth emigrated to Lanc... 30 Dec 20 10.52am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Why wait, hop over to Ireland and be a citizen of the world.

It never ceases to amaze me how many fifth columnists love to suckle at a teat they so clearly dislike....then again, that's what fifth columnists do I suppose.

I think you've been listening to too much Mark Francois and watching too much Dads Army!

Following Palace since 25 Feb 1978

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Stirlingsays 30 Dec 20 10.58am
Originally posted by kevlee I think you've been listening to too much Mark Francois and watching too much Dads Army! Or perhaps not enough. It's all true, just fifty years too late. Still, a dig in the ribs keeps em warmed up. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

30 Dec 20 10.58am

Originally posted by kevlee

I think you've been listening to too much Mark Francois and watching too much Dads Army!

Or perhaps not enough.

It's all true, just fifty years too late.

Still, a dig in the ribs keeps em warmed up.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 30 Dec 20 11.01am
About time, new EU workers can no longer claim benefits for 5 years. [Link] I have posted before that it costs the taxpayer a fortune to subsidize a minimum wage worker who may pay 3k in taxes but claim ten times that much. If they have kids over hear that does not include the cost of education and healthcare. If the greedy employers are so desperate for EU workers then they will have to offer them a better pay deal to make it attractive to come here. Now we need to ensure that these jobs are taken up by the unemployed. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 30 Dec 20 11.01am

About time, new EU workers can no longer claim benefits for 5 years.

[Link]

I have posted before that it costs the taxpayer a fortune to subsidize a minimum wage worker who may pay 3k in taxes but claim ten times that much. If they have kids over hear that does not include the cost of education and healthcare.

If the greedy employers are so desperate for EU workers then they will have to offer them a better pay deal to make it attractive to come here.

Now we need to ensure that these jobs are taken up by the unemployed.

One more point

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