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Hrolf The Ganger 28 Dec 20 10.41pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
We are all going through difficult times but whilst there will always be improvements to be made the fundamental wisdom of the EU project remains untarnished. There are things that are more efficiently done together than alone. It's the principle of subsidiarity which needs to be remembered and kept at the heart of the EU. The EU will survive these difficult times and emerge stronger because of the fundamentals. We are unlikely to, for exactly the same reason. If I am wrong then I will be more than happy to admit it. If I am around at the time of course. Will you though? For people like you just getting out seems the justification for everything. So you could not now ever be wrong. We could end up living in caves and you would claim success because they would be "our" caves. My desire to leave Europe was not based on trade deals. As I have said 1000 times, I did not want to become part of a federal Europe which is inevitable.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 28 Dec 20 10.41pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
Yes, I will have to learn to live with that and still have kept some (very few) Remoaners in my immediate circles because our friendship had sufficient deepness to survive it although still damage done but I have cut out far, far more with no desire to reach out again. Can barely exchange a civil word with such people. Normally I have zero issues in having friendships with people who have different views from me because that is how the world should be but people who sort to undermine the very basic core principle of how our Democracy functions? No. Goes beyond even that. Shameful, shameful behaviour. But I boring myself about this now so will strive to let it go. I have read this kind of vitriol from you many times. I am quite sure that you understand the way British Parliamentary democracy works so why do you get so wound up over a referendum, which has no legal status whatsoever? It's not good for you! Parliament makes the laws. Not governments or Prime Ministers. No PM can make a firm commitment that a referendum result will be respected. They can only promise to do their best to ensure it is but Parliament will always play the defining role. Asking Parliament to vote according to their consciences, knowing what they had discovered post the referendum and what they collectively believed to be the best future for us, was all that people like myself argued for. That Parliament failed to do that was down to the party political system and its conventions together with the personal ambitions of both Johnson and Corbyn. It was this that deserves the condemnation and not those people like myself who were encouraging them to vote according to their known personal convictions. Ours was a position of integrity that recognised the way our democracy should work when faced with a demanding issue of such over-riding constitutional importance and why it failed on this occasion. Party loyalties should be put aside at such times. Some brave souls sacrificed their careers as a consequence but too many bottled it. I will argue until hell freezes over that a 52:48 result in 2016 is not a reason to press ahead with Brexit come what may in 2020. A new Parliament decided it should, so it has. That new Parliament ought never have happened though. It was in the Autumn of last year that the shenanigans peaked and Parliament failed. You may disagree but I am not going to get upset over that as I am sure you are sincere. Wrong, but sincere.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 28 Dec 20 11.06pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
My desire to leave Europe was not based on trade deals. As I have said 1000 times, I did not want to become part of a federal Europe which is inevitable. The old red herrings are out in force tonight! Saying something a million times doesn't make it right when it's wrong. We weren't about to become part of a federal Europe. There was no such proposal on the table and no prospect of there ever being one, let alone of it being accepted. To raise it as an issue is naked scaremongering. Should any future UK government attempt to agree such a thing then I for one would stand shoulder to shoulder against it. It's not wanted and it won't happen. There is nothing inevitable about it. We would have to agree. We won't. End of! Globalism has nothing to do with one government ruling the world, and mediocrity for all but an elite. Which far-right web site do you get these ideas from? It is actually just a way of describing the interconnected and interdependent modern world. Which truly is inevitable.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 28 Dec 20 11.14pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
All that would be believable if politician’s consciousnesses were guided by what is best for the country rather than a desire to gain or stay in power. Some did do what they believed to be best for us, and some lost their jobs as a result. Which demonstrated the weakness of the party system. That needs to be repaired in some way so that no MP is ever fearful of being deselected by a group of party activists ever again. We cannot allow activists to decide how MPs vote any more than we can allow smarmy admen posing as "advisors" to write catchy slogans intended to lull the gullible.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle 28 Dec 20 11.28pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Some did do what they believed to be best for us, and some lost their jobs as a result. Which demonstrated the weakness of the party system. That needs to be repaired in some way so that no MP is ever fearful of being deselected by a group of party activists ever again. We cannot allow activists to decide how MPs vote any more than we can allow smarmy admen posing as "advisors" to write catchy slogans intended to lull the gullible. Why bother with a party system at all if once elected MPs can ignore everything except their own opinion?
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BlueJay UK 28 Dec 20 11.45pm | |
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Post Brexit I see housing as the real litmus test. Even at this time when people are in financial dire straits house prices go up and up. Now that we have control over our borders, that's certainly one box ticked in terms of combatting a generation being priced out. My concern though is that while we've peeled away one layer of government (EU) control, it will still prove to be one layer too many. Our own politicians and parties are chock-full of those benefiting from keeping the average hard working man on the hamster wheel, and our sons and daughters spending decades paying off someone elses mortgage. If any party 'genuinely' intended to address this problem they'd have my vote.
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Tom-the-eagle Croydon 28 Dec 20 11.57pm | |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
Post Brexit I see housing as the real litmus test. Even at this time when people are in financial dire straits house prices go up and up. Now that we have control over our borders, that's certainly one box ticked in terms of combatting a generation being priced out. My concern though is that while we've peeled away one layer of government (EU) control, it will still prove to be one layer too many. Our own politicians and parties are chock-full of those benefiting from keeping the average hard working man on the hamster wheel, and our sons and daughters spending decades paying off someone elses mortgage. If any party 'genuinely' intended to address this problem they'd have my vote.
Great post BlueJay With an open door immigration policy rent and house prices only ever go up whilst wages constantly stagnate. This is not opinion, just fact driven by supply and demand, This is not to say that cheap labour is necessary bad for business, but more often than not it is bad for the working man.
"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit |
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The Dolphin 29 Dec 20 7.29am | |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
Post Brexit I see housing as the real litmus test. Even at this time when people are in financial dire straits house prices go up and up. Now that we have control over our borders, that's certainly one box ticked in terms of combatting a generation being priced out. My concern though is that while we've peeled away one layer of government (EU) control, it will still prove to be one layer too many. Our own politicians and parties are chock-full of those benefiting from keeping the average hard working man on the hamster wheel, and our sons and daughters spending decades paying off someone elses mortgage. If any party 'genuinely' intended to address this problem they'd have my vote.
Good post!
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Badger11 Beckenham 29 Dec 20 8.44am | |
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Post Brexit the challenge of course is the economy and the threat of AI and robotics. This was always coming but COVID has sped this up. The high street will be decimated, banks will close more branches, cash is no longer king and many will lose their office jobs over the next few years. The government cannot stop "progress" but can help re-focus the economy especially in the north through infrastructure projects. It can also keep a tight grip on unskilled workers coming to this country we do not need them we will have plenty of unempolyed of our own soon.
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kevlee born Wandsworth emigrated to Lanc... 29 Dec 20 9.29am | |
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Originally posted by Tom-the-eagle
Great post BlueJay With an open door immigration policy rent and house prices only ever go up whilst wages constantly stagnate. This is not opinion, just fact driven by supply and demand, This is not to say that cheap labour is necessary bad for business, but more often than not it is bad for the working man. Bit of an understatement... when is cheap labour ever good for the working man? The rest of us then have to top it up with tax credits or benefits. There is only one person who benefits from cheap labour and thats the employer. Why pay a guy £150 a day when you can pay him £100 because he needs the work?
Following Palace since 25 Feb 1978 |
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Badger11 Beckenham 29 Dec 20 9.36am | |
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Originally posted by kevlee
Bit of an understatement... when is cheap labour ever good for the working man? The rest of us then have to top it up with tax credits or benefits. There is only one person who benefits from cheap labour and thats the employer. Why pay a guy £150 a day when you can pay him £100 because he needs the work? A while back I did some research a man on minimum wage with 2 kids and a non working wife living in rented accommodation would likely pay around 3k in taxes and be entitled to 30k in benefits. Importing "cheap" labour is not cheap for the country. Edited by Badger11 (29 Dec 2020 9.36am)
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jeeagles 29 Dec 20 10.09am | |
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The EU banned Britain from importing beef for decades over a handful of BSE deaths. Whilst China gets rewarded for is abysmal food hygiene standards which have plunged the world into lockdown.
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