The EU isn't Nato.

Both have entirely different entry criteria. For whatever reason the EU eased the way in for Greece, who conned them on the way and then have spent a long time paying for it.

Ukraine joining the EU, which is possible, would have no bearing at all on whether it would be admitted into Nato, which I cannot imagine happening in the foreseeable future.

The Eastern European countries who joined were far from "3rd world countries". They wanted to align themselves with the west after decades of being dominated by Russia. Building a democratic barrier between ourselves and the mafia state to the east made sense, and does so even more now.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

"Agreement to ban export of Russian oil to the EU.

This immediately covers more than 2/3 of oil imports from Russia"

Lose-lose short term. Possibly puts some pressure to further peace process and long term may force countries to more heavily invest in renewable and nuclear technology. It was always strategically a big mistake for countries to rely so heavily on a nieghbour for energy needs. Especially an unstable one.

If the long term consequence of this is to make the West become energy self-sufficient then it will be a huge positive. Absolutely zero doubts about that. I look forward to the announcement of massive investment in renewables, nuclear, fracking and maybe even starting to mine coal, which Europe has huge amounts of, once more.

But I suspect it will just make us even more reliant on the likes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Those liberal beacons whose petro-dollars have had such a positive effect on us all. Better to enrich, even more, those places than somewhere as barbaric as Russia.

However, I am more than happy to be proved wrong on this.

Edited by Matov (31 May 2022 6.37am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

I definitely agree that this would be a massive plus and that it's something that people and nations, regardless of environmental perspectives, should all push towards. Energy independence is not an overnight or painless move, but we see what can happen where it's a move we make too slowly or only see the downside of. Unfortunately, many of those who overwise would be suspicious of government and corporations, bought into ideas over decades from the oil lobby, that archiac and finite status quo is the way ahead (It's certainly not only the 'green' push that people should be wary of). Reliance on other nations for energy is a perpetually twisted arm. It doesn't matter how you do it (renewables + nuclear mix etc), it does though matter that you do.

I fully agree with all of this but, and for me this is the crux, why has energy autarky not been the goal for decades? I would argue that our entire political system in the West has been in the thrall of Middle Eastern petro-dollars for so long now that our current system is institutionally incapable of switching to the kind of long term policies required.

Hence why this current 'embargo' actually makes us even more enslaved by barbarian regimes and why Russia's many attempts to enjoy closer relations with the West have been rebuffed ever since the wall came down.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Yep agree with all of that and the post from BJ that you originally replied to.

My guess is that whilst there may have been appetite and/or ponderance for looking at alternative energy sources governments in power may have seen it as a 'too risky' a move.

Perhaps there had to be solid ground on which to make the decision to wholeheartedly switch attentions and indeed efforts elsewhere. No doubt the average Joe let alone corporations will feel some pinches in the meantime as this goes through. There might also be the suggestion that Russia's newly earnt pariah status and warmongering will pave the way for an undertaking of such magnitude.

Just musings from me of course, not that they are often worth very much!

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!