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Matov 26 Apr 20 7.18pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Yes, of course we should. Until we change it for one we prefer. That is both our right and our duty. But if we always trust them, why would we ever have reason to change it? And given the adversarial nature of both our legal and political system with its notion of an 'Official' opposition, surely the entire ethos is based on it being under constant scrutiny and challenge? Or do you believe that it should never be held to account?
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 26 Apr 20 8.36pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
But if we always trust them, why would we ever have reason to change it? And given the adversarial nature of both our legal and political system with its notion of an 'Official' opposition, surely the entire ethos is based on it being under constant scrutiny and challenge? Or do you believe that it should never be held to account? Of course it needs to be held to account. In Parliament, by the media and ultimately by us at a GE. That though does not mean it is wise to always release everything as soon as it is available. I have little doubt that some, or even most, of it will be released, together with the consequent actions and recommendations. That though won't happen unless and until it is considered safe to do so. In the meantime the appropriate select committee will be able to see it and hold the government to account.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 26 Apr 20 8.45pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Presumably this opinion ends criticism of Donald Trump’s administration as well? Oh, wait. Where have I said that we ought never criticise the government? We ought to show some restraint at the moment in an effort to sustain a national effort but these are exceptional times. We are talking about whether a report ought to be released just because some people want it to be. People are free to criticise that decision. Just as I am free to criticise Trump. Who does nothing himself to try to sustain a national effort in the USA.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 26 Apr 20 8.55pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
How about when they’re just mouth pieces for a Cummings or a Mandelson? Separate problem. We elect our MPs and they form a government. Wherever they get their advice the buck stops with them and not the advisors. Nevertheless I would like to see all such advisors made redundant. They ought only work directly for political parties, primarily during election campaigns, and not be allowed near our elected representatives once chosen. There are expert civil servants there to provide the required specialist knowledge. We don't want marketing men deciding policy or spin doctors presenting it.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle 26 Apr 20 8.57pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Where have I said that we ought never criticise the government? We ought to show some restraint at the moment in an effort to sustain a national effort but these are exceptional times. We are talking about whether a report ought to be released just because some people want it to be. People are free to criticise that decision. Just as I am free to criticise Trump. Who does nothing himself to try to sustain a national effort in the USA. But that’s all people are doing: criticising the decision.
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Teddy Eagle 26 Apr 20 9.00pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Separate problem. We elect our MPs and they form a government. Wherever they get their advice the buck stops with them and not the advisors. Nevertheless I would like to see all such advisors made redundant. They ought only work directly for political parties, primarily during election campaigns, and not be allowed near our elected representatives once chosen. There are expert civil servants there to provide the required specialist knowledge. We don't want marketing men deciding policy or spin doctors presenting it. Entirely agree but they’re here now and aren’t likely to be going anywhere soon.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 26 Apr 20 10.36pm | |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
But that’s all people are doing: criticising the decision. And all I am doing is disagreeing!
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle 26 Apr 20 11.05pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
And all I am doing is disagreeing! Fair enough. If the situation and attitudes are different in six months or a year or five years the decision is right. If not it’s wrong. If the situation is worse then it’s very wrong. Of course the people making the decision to reveal the information will be largely different to those choosing not to but that’s politics.
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Matov 27 Apr 20 8.10am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
And all I am doing is disagreeing! On the basis that somehow Government know best on this. When the overwhelming evidence, of decade after decade of not only ignoring the horrendous crimes but even, at least on a local level, helping it happen for political gain. Demands for transparency on any and every future investigation into it are not only perfectly acceptable but the only reasonable option given the multiple cover-ups over the years. Lies and deceit have allowed thousands of crimes to be committed. Why on earth are we meant to trust the institutions that enabled that to happen? To just accept, without total scrutiny, that really, despite it all, we should trust them to do the best thing now? And please don't tell me that they are good people. If they were, this issue would have been dealt with, for the good of all, years and years ago.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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Badger11 Beckenham 27 Apr 20 8.35am | |
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Originally posted by Matov
On the basis that somehow Government know best on this. When the overwhelming evidence, of decade after decade of not only ignoring the horrendous crimes but even, at least on a local level, helping it happen for political gain. Demands for transparency on any and every future investigation into it are not only perfectly acceptable but the only reasonable option given the multiple cover-ups over the years. Lies and deceit have allowed thousands of crimes to be committed. Why on earth are we meant to trust the institutions that enabled that to happen? To just accept, without total scrutiny, that really, despite it all, we should trust them to do the best thing now? And please don't tell me that they are good people. If they were, this issue would have been dealt with, for the good of all, years and years ago. Exactly this is the whole point. For decades people in authority covered and or turned a blind eye and in some cases participated in serious sex crimes involving minors. Now we are expected to accept that a report into this should be kept secret for the public good. Seriously! When the main allegation is people in the know covering up and then the government won't tell us what they learned it beggars belief and we are expected to trust people in authority. The way you earn the trust of the public is to publish and then deal with the fall out. It will not be comfortable reading for certain political parties and the police and local councils, social services will rightly take a hammering. You then put in place procedures* to ensure it never happens again (the cover up I mean). Imagine if the MacPherson inquiry into racism in the police was never published in case it upset people Labour didn't have a problem with that did they. Too many skeletons that is the real issue here. * I would create a new criminal offence specifically aimed at people in authority such as the social service, police, politicians etc. Failure to act on serious allegations of abuse, failure to document and report these allegations etc. would result in jail time as criminal negligence. If you threaten these people with serious jail time for not doing their job they will soon decide it's not worth protecting individuals or groups. Edited by Badger11 (27 Apr 2020 8.42am) Edited by Badger11 (27 Apr 2020 8.42am)
One more point |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 Apr 20 9.39am | |
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Originally posted by Matov
On the basis that somehow Government know best on this. When the overwhelming evidence, of decade after decade of not only ignoring the horrendous crimes but even, at least on a local level, helping it happen for political gain. Demands for transparency on any and every future investigation into it are not only perfectly acceptable but the only reasonable option given the multiple cover-ups over the years. Lies and deceit have allowed thousands of crimes to be committed. Why on earth are we meant to trust the institutions that enabled that to happen? To just accept, without total scrutiny, that really, despite it all, we should trust them to do the best thing now? And please don't tell me that they are good people. If they were, this issue would have been dealt with, for the good of all, years and years ago. There are a number of, what I regard, as incorrect, assertions there. I don't necessarily believe the government, or anybody else actually, know "best". My belief is that as they are the ones with both the responsibility and the knowledge of what's in the report, and that we elected them to take these decisions on our behalf, we ought to give them the benefit of any doubt. If their judgement, probably guided by the Police, is that "transparency" would make matters worse then I think, whatever any personal reservations we might have, that their decision must be respected. It's easy to throw mud and suggest there were past "cover ups" but unless you know all the circumstances, what guided decision making at the time, who made them etc etc all you are doing is being wise after the event. As we know hindsight is a wonderful thing but it doesn't determine what decisions are needed now. It only provides useful experience which I am sure will have been considered. The focus has to be on the most effective way to deal with the issue now, given all the current circumstances.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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cryrst The garden of England 27 Apr 20 10.40am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
There are a number of, what I regard, as incorrect, assertions there. I don't necessarily believe the government, or anybody else actually, know "best". My belief is that as they are the ones with both the responsibility and the knowledge of what's in the report, and that we elected them to take these decisions on our behalf, we ought to give them the benefit of any doubt. If their judgement, probably guided by the Police, is that "transparency" would make matters worse then I think, whatever any personal reservations we might have, that their decision must be respected. It's easy to throw mud and suggest there were past "cover ups" but unless you know all the circumstances, what guided decision making at the time, who made them etc etc all you are doing is being wise after the event. As we know hindsight is a wonderful thing but it doesn't determine what decisions are needed now. It only provides useful experience which I am sure will have been considered. The focus has to be on the most effective way to deal with the issue now, given all the current circumstances. Make matters worse for who?
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