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jamiemartin721  Reading 14 Apr 15 10.57am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Apr 2015 1.22am
Quote imbored at 12 Apr 2015 1.16am
Are you saying that issues like not believing disability, gender, sexuality, race should define a person's worth is somehow a flawed or lesser world view? It's not about disability, gender, sexuality or race. It's about connection and common experience.....For example, do you regard a stranger you have never met as important to you as a family member? Indeed, its not about actual real things, but tags associated by accidents of geography that are themselves given meaning by lines drawn on a map that have shifted over the years. Connection and common experience are largely irrelivent as they're nowhere near any kind of consistancy, and entirely subjective. A stranger of course means less to me than a member of my family, but that can never actually define anything in terms of objective determinations, that stranger should have the same rights as my family member (even if I don't like them or what they stand for). All citizens of a nation should have the same rights, irrespective of whether they're a citizen of birth or by migration (and irrespective of any defining characteristics such as gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation) - except where a necessity occurs (disabled people for example may have special dispensation in say welfare provision towards enabling them to experience a more full participation in society).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Apr 15 10.58am |
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Quote imbored at 13 Apr 2015 11.13pm
Quote TUX at 13 Apr 2015 10.24pm
Quote nickgusset at 13 Apr 2015 7.59pm
Disabled unborn? Abort him/her! What a lovely man. This rings a sad bell. We don't talk as much as we used to.
Edited by imbored (13 Apr 2015 11.14pm) Indeed, which is sad, because UKIP had a very good point to begin with, about a referendum on the EU - which at its core is something the UK should decide rather than parliment. Its up to politicians to sell us on such changes, rather than force them on us.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Apr 15 11.06am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Apr 2015 1.34amYou see where I'm going with this.....And hence maybe why I regard egalitarianism as a limited though noble tool....But a conceptual tool that is frequently not examined by those who use it.
Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Apr 2015 1.35am) The same could be said of nationalism. The key to any idealogical concept - Is that it has to be drawn on a basis which is defined within the spirit of that nation, and a democracy which does not extend the notion of equality where ever it can, eventually suffers from becoming a 'tyranny of the majority': we extend rights, and protections, to minority groups within democratic society, that maybe aren't defined for majority groups, to protect them from the majority. The history of groups, such as the disabled, migrants, women, gay, lesbian, transgendered, the mentally ill, prisoners etc throughout history has been one where in their rights to be citizens are defined, not by their best interests or freedoms, but by the opinions of them by majority power groups - resulting in situations of oppression through ignorance, prejudice often protrayed as 'good intentions'.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| imbored UK 14 Apr 15 11.22am |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 14 Apr 2015 10.57am
Quote Stirlingsays at 12 Apr 2015 1.22am
Quote imbored at 12 Apr 2015 1.16am
Are you saying that issues like not believing disability, gender, sexuality, race should define a person's worth is somehow a flawed or lesser world view? It's not about disability, gender, sexuality or race. It's about connection and common experience.....For example, do you regard a stranger you have never met as important to you as a family member? Indeed, its not about actual real things, but tags associated by accidents of geography that are themselves given meaning by lines drawn on a map that have shifted over the years. Connection and common experience are largely irrelivent as they're nowhere near any kind of consistancy, and entirely subjective. A stranger of course means less to me than a member of my family, but that can never actually define anything in terms of objective determinations, that stranger should have the same rights as my family member (even if I don't like them or what they stand for). All citizens of a nation should have the same rights, irrespective of whether they're a citizen of birth or by migration (and irrespective of any defining characteristics such as gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation) - except where a necessity occurs (disabled people for example may have special dispensation in say welfare provision towards enabling them to experience a more full participation in society). I agree with what your saying here. The very point raised "do you regard a stranger you have never met as important to you as a family member?" is a mindset rather than a useful argument. I went down the social groups route because the implication was that if someone is more distant or has a less common experience it's fine for a society to care less about them or to treat them differently. Better to use your love for people to appreciate commonality, not to relegate.
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 Apr 15 12.32pm |
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I'm going to the recording of any questions on Friday. Nigel is a panellist!
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 14 Apr 15 8.40pm |
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I've got my question sorted...
Edited by nickgusset (14 Apr 2015 8.41pm)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 15 Apr 15 8.38pm |
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UKIP 'Believe in Britain' flyers printed in Germany!
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| Tom-the-eagle Croydon 15 Apr 15 9.09pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 15 Apr 2015 8.38pm
UKIP 'Believe in Britain' flyers printed in Germany!
"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 15 Apr 15 9.15pm |
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Quote Tom-the-eagle at 15 Apr 2015 9.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 15 Apr 2015 8.38pm
UKIP 'Believe in Britain' flyers printed in Germany!
They're internationalists.
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| Tom-the-eagle Croydon 15 Apr 15 9.29pm |
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Well that's one word for them
"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 16 Apr 15 10.16am |
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Quote Tom-the-eagle at 15 Apr 2015 9.09pm
Quote nickgusset at 15 Apr 2015 8.38pm
UKIP 'Believe in Britain' flyers printed in Germany!
Irrelivent, she's a British citizen.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 16 Apr 15 10.35am |
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Quote nickgusset at 14 Apr 2015 12.32pm
I'm going to the recording of any questions on Friday. Nigel is a panellist!
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