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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 28 May 17 7.29pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
What is the point of this? The best attainment scores in the world are from the comprehensive system that Finland have. That treats all of its children far better. How are you quantifying the 'best' here? Against what standard is it measured?
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hedgehog50 Croydon 28 May 17 7.32pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
It was labour briefing not London briefing. I've had an article published in their years ago on education. Corbyn explained his role with them quite comprehensively in an interview a couple of weeks ago. Don't let the truth get in the way of your BS. I was previously called the London Labour Briefing, also been the Labour left briefing. Whichever name it uses, it was formed by members of the 'Chartist Minority Tendency', which was a former Trotskyist part of the 'Chartist Collective'. [I know it is hard to keep track of all the communist splintering and name changing that goes on.] The Briefing of many names was a supporter of the Trotskyist 'Militant Tendency' and of Irish Republicanism. Apart from the comments they made that have been previously mentioned, after the Brighton bombing, they published, "What do you call four dead Tories? A start", and mocked Norman Tebbit who was dug out of the rubble of the Grand Hotel and who's wife was left permanently paralysed, saying "try riding your bike now, Norman".
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Stirlingsays 28 May 17 7.42pm | |
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Originally posted by Cucking Funt
How are you quantifying the 'best' here? Against what standard is it measured? Finland like all entering countries are tested against the Pisa. The resulting scores are measured against each other. Look into it yourself. Students between the ages of 15 years 3 months and 16 years 2 months complete the assessment of paper-based tests which cover mathematics, reading, science and problem-solving. The assessments last around two hours. Finland has a comprehensive system that doesn't hoard the best for just a few and provides a decent education. It scores highly in all areas and is often judged the best.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Mapletree Croydon 28 May 17 7.46pm | |
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It seems to me the big issue is how can you design a system that allows good access to all and that is fair in terms of allowing the brightest roughly the same chance as the competition. In Croydon we don't have Grammar Schools. But Sutton does. So there is a massive industry in getting Croydon pupils ready to sit the exams for Sutton schools. The industry is based upon parental drive, ability to pay and access to tutors. It also - in my opinion - robs many children of much of their childhood as they are forced into dingy study rooms with tutors for hours each week. In the end not many children who aren't tutored make it into the Grammar schools. You cannot design tests that remove the effect of being tutored. So you add together the advantage of the extra academic focus of Grammars schools with the super-demanding and mobilised parents - many of whom are also highly educated and in a position to guide their children far better than most - and you get a virtuous circle. For the few. And almost nobody else gets to break in. Comprehensives were designed to allow people to move between streams so if you are found to be brighter than at first thought you can progress and vice versa. It is incredibly unusual for people to get 'promoted' into Grammar schools if they miss the first cut. Grammar schools are therefore automatically divisive and obstructive to social mobility. Still, what do I care. The State paid for me to go to an independent school when I passed my 11+ due to having been sent to a Prep school.
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Hrolf The Ganger 28 May 17 8.55pm | |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
It seems to me the big issue is how can you design a system that allows good access to all and that is fair in terms of allowing the brightest roughly the same chance as the competition. In Croydon we don't have Grammar Schools. But Sutton does. So there is a massive industry in getting Croydon pupils ready to sit the exams for Sutton schools. The industry is based upon parental drive, ability to pay and access to tutors. It also - in my opinion - robs many children of much of their childhood as they are forced into dingy study rooms with tutors for hours each week. In the end not many children who aren't tutored make it into the Grammar schools. You cannot design tests that remove the effect of being tutored. So you add together the advantage of the extra academic focus of Grammars schools with the super-demanding and mobilised parents - many of whom are also highly educated and in a position to guide their children far better than most - and you get a virtuous circle. For the few. And almost nobody else gets to break in. Comprehensives were designed to allow people to move between streams so if you are found to be brighter than at first thought you can progress and vice versa. It is incredibly unusual for people to get 'promoted' into Grammar schools if they miss the first cut. Grammar schools are therefore automatically divisive and obstructive to social mobility. Still, what do I care. The State paid for me to go to an independent school when I passed my 11+ due to having been sent to a Prep school. Once again just stereotyping. I went to a dreadful comprehensive and my wife a slightly less dreadful comprehensive and there were no tutors to be seen. My daughter got in to her grammar on merit and my son got in on appeal after failing his 11+ by a couple of marks. They both did some practice papers and that is it.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 28 May 17 9.08pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (28 May 2017 5.13pm) The home tutor industry is worth 2billion quid. Bright kids from low income families rarely can afford tutors. I could make a mint myself from tutoring for 11+ but won't out of principle. Those that are tutored tend to drop to the lower sets and struggle. If selection was more of an even playing field, I'd have less of a problem, notwithstanding the fact that surrounding schools fall below average national expectations when it comes to exam results.
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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 28 May 17 9.17pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
The home tutor industry is worth 2billion quid. Bright kids from low income families rarely can afford tutors. I could make a mint myself from tutoring for 11+ but won't out of principle. Those that are tutored tend to drop to the lower sets and struggle. If selection was more of an even playing field, I'd have less of a problem, notwithstanding the fact that surrounding schools fall below average national expectations when it comes to exam results. Not from me, you wouldn't.
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Hrolf The Ganger 28 May 17 9.18pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
The home tutor industry is worth 2billion quid. Bright kids from low income families rarely can afford tutors. I could make a mint myself from tutoring for 11+ but won't out of principle. Those that are tutored tend to drop to the lower sets and struggle. If selection was more of an even playing field, I'd have less of a problem, notwithstanding the fact that surrounding schools fall below average national expectations when it comes to exam results. But my kids had no tutoring Einstein.
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Hrolf The Ganger 28 May 17 9.31pm | |
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Alright, the headline doesn't really cover all he said but it made me facepalm.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 28 May 17 9.39pm | |
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I passed my 11+ many years ago and seem to remember it as being quite easy. A lot of IQ test type questions - what is next in the sequence type of thing. An essay to write. Not things that you get much better at with tutoring. Bright kids passed it, not so bright kids did not. You could guess who in the class were going to pass, regardless of their background, not that we had any kids in the class from any sort of privileged background. Edited by hedgehog50 (28 May 2017 9.40pm)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Stirlingsays 28 May 17 10.39pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
I passed my 11+ many years ago and seem to remember it as being quite easy. A lot of IQ test type questions - what is next in the sequence type of thing. An essay to write. Not things that you get much better at with tutoring. Bright kids passed it, not so bright kids did not. You could guess who in the class were going to pass, regardless of their background, not that we had any kids in the class from any sort of privileged background. Edited by hedgehog50 (28 May 2017 9.40pm) You can't get better at essay writing with tutoring? Maybe if you are as dim as fcuk Hedge but otherwise of course you can....You should read Vintage Stuff by Tom Sharpe...He even takes the piss out of the practice of getting the less able over the line.....And he use to do it for a living. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 May 2017 10.46pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Stirlingsays 28 May 17 10.41pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
But my kids had no tutoring Einstein. Are you saying you didn't pay for tutoring? Bully for you Hrolf but as the number of home tutoring jobs shows....plenty do. Edited by Stirlingsays (28 May 2017 10.43pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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