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W12 22 May 22 5.20am | |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
I don't understand what you are suggesting here? I haven't really followed the narrative of your posts TBH and could suggest what I think you are getting at but could you summarise in no more than 3/4 paragraphs? Yes, it is mainly because I am now struggling to entertain myself this Saturday night but it seems to me as though you are suggesting that Russia is actually performing some sort of Denazification on a neighbour, that the rest of the world is somehow in cahoots with these Ukrainian Nazis so the entire narrative has been completely distorted and fabricated to deceive all of us with the intention to ensure the introduction of Nazism but Putin is actually some sort of heroic martyr as the only world leader to attempting to save the world from this Nazism? Breath. That's a very genuine and literal post/question. No other intention/nuance/motive. Almost none of that. Yes Russia wants to “denazify” Ukraine (at least in the south and east although this war may have unintended consequences. Mainly, they always wanted Ukraine to stay neutral and act as a buffer zone which you can argue has somewhat backfired due to Sweden and Finland. No it’s not the “rest of the world” in “cohoots” but mainly our glorious leaders in the US and the UK under the banner of NATO playing geopolitical games and being far too friendly with the military industrial complex who are now being fed billions in tax payers money to supply weapons to extremists. By their own admission western “military advisors” have been on the ground in Ukraine for years. I’m neutral on Putin. I don’t consider him a hero but he’s no mad man or hitler like we are being told.
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W12 22 May 22 5.26am | |
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Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly
I think this thread has exposed a lot of posters short-comings,...not least of which my own. I have altered my opinion periodically, based on other posters contributions and on information as it comes. I think a few posters credibility was blown out of the water on this thread. That’s a good post. I wish you would expand on it though. I’m not assuming you agree with me on anything by the way but what you said is true.
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Ouzo Dan Behind you 22 May 22 9.15am | |
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Here is the founder of the Russian PMC Wagner group Dmitry Utkin a Neo Nazi & friend/advisor of Putin. I still dont get this Nazi angle literally every country in central/eastern Europe has Neo Nazis, I guess Russia should invade every country from Eastern Germany back their borders then. I'd hazard a guess that the siege of Azovstal has made the Azov battalion martyrs & this in time will bring many more to their side, Russia have de-nazified nothing. The Nazi angle is an excuse for invasion, if you watch Russian state media they're branding anyone against them a Nazi.
The mountains are calling & I must go. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 22 May 22 9.16am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
It is a fact. It's been written about and verified within elites themselves. You are the guy who thinks the public have control over elites.....something no one even on your side was willing to back you on. You have blown your credibility there I think. If you think you can spot a common pattern, don't worry, your common purpose whistle is loud enough for anyone who knows the sound. Of course, elite "theory" isn't a fact! It's a theory. Even you must know the difference between theory and fact. That strata within societies exist is obvious. Denigrating some of them by attaching labels and trying to set them up as demonic scapegoats for all our ills is what I take issue with. They are your elites! It's what you think they do that is the theory. It's a conspiracy theory, just like all the others. The sad thing is that you seem unable to recognise it as such. We need politicians and managers to be decision makers. We need journalists to investigate what they do and keep us informed. We need the power of the market to keep managers on their toes, and the legal system to root out corruption. We need elections so we can decide who we want as our political representatives. What you suggest is nonsense. There is no underlying organisation that coordinates these people into a unified force. They are just sections of society. The people within them come and go, but membership is open to all of us, if we possess the ability and the determination. Of course, there are some who are born with entitlement running through their veins, but merit wins today. I have no idea whether anyone "backs" me. It's of no interest at all. I learned long ago that speaking the truth is much more important than seeking bias confirmation.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Stirlingsays 22 May 22 10.02am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Of course, elite "theory" isn't a fact! It's a theory. Even you must know the difference between theory and fact. Yeah, gravity is just a theory as well. No one calls explanations for how something works 'facts'. Read a book sometime, here's a link to one. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
That strata within societies exist is obvious. Denigrating some of them by attaching labels and trying to set them up as demonic scapegoats for all our ills is what I take issue with. They are your elites! It's what you think they do that is the theory. It's a conspiracy theory, just like all the others. The sad thing is that you seem unable to recognise it as such. We need politicians and managers to be decision makers. We need journalists to investigate what they do and keep us informed. We need the power of the market to keep managers on their toes, and the legal system to root out corruption. We need elections so we can decide who we want as our political representatives. What you suggest is nonsense. There is no underlying organisation that coordinates these people into a unified force. They are just sections of society. The people within them come and go, but membership is open to all of us, if we possess the ability and the determination. Of course, there are some who are born with entitlement running through their veins, but merit wins today. Yawn....Your 'boomer truth' theory. Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I have no idea whether anyone "backs" me. It's of no interest at all. I learned long ago that speaking the truth is much more important than seeking bias confirmation. Your pathetic fawning whenever anyone actually did support something you wrote illustrates the deep dishonesty of your statement. Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2022 10.02am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 22 May 22 10.18am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
There are signs that China are preparing themselves against western sanctions and it's actually been happening for quite a while. 'China is preparing for war. First, Xi orders Chinese banks to risk asses and insulate against potential U.S sanctions. Now Xi is directing Chinese nationals overseas to divest of any assets. China has been hoarding grains for over a year In January 2020, China updated their “Foreign Investment Law” which gives Beijing the power and ability to naitonalise foreign assets and investments under “special circumstances” which include war. In mid 2021, China’s new Counter Foreign Sanctions law enables Beijing to seize corporate assets and detain expat employees if the underlying corporation simply is complying with foreign sanctions. The groundwork is being laid for complete seizure of foreign assets and investment in China. If you are an institutional fiduciary or any other fiduciary, you better be re-thinking your risk assessment of investing in public or private Chinese companies. Investors lost everything in Russia and have tried to sweep it under the rug. They won’t be able to hide the hundreds of billions that will be lost in Chinese investments.' (Kyle Bass, Chief Investment Officer Hayman Capital Management) The elites fed and grew the tiger...with their greed driven optimisms and idealistic justifications.....but it will be the average joe who will have to eventually deal with it. Whose narrative do you think the media will run with? It will whatever the elites want you to think to justify their cock ups while they paint the blame on the external 'other'....that it suddenly becomes acceptable to demonise. Where are you now Chris Patten?.....everything you said was utter bullsh1t. Edited by Stirlingsays (21 May 2022 4.14pm) I just don't get this scenario. The Chinese are pragmatic and are not going to do anything for emotional or idealistic reasons. Xi is not Putin, for whom hurt personal pride is a reason to risk his country's future. China already has control over foreign assets in the way that inward investment is allowed and regulated. Tightening that is nothing new. The world needs China and China needs the world. Doing anything that upsets that makes no sense. Especially when doing nothing will eventually achieve the same result. The western Pacific will become China's area of influence as sure as night follows day. It's only a question of when. The 21st century always belonged to China. We need to accept that, and live with its reality. Even if, in the very unlikely event, the worst should happen and China actually begins a hot war, I do not see much of a response from the west, beyond some tokenism. Direct confrontation would not happen, in my view. If they are hoarding food, then there must be other reasons. Probably much more to do with anticipating rising prices and taking economic advantage of them, than anything else.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 22 May 22 3.25pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Yeah, gravity is just a theory as well. Which plenty of people question! That the effect is observable, doesn't mean the causes are fully understood. For "elite theory" even the effect is imaginary. All that those who propound this stuff seek to do is attribute a convenient cause to natural changes, which are entirely consequent upon the way the modern world has evolved. They want to find something to blame for developments they don't like with the totally nonsensical idea that if only these "elites" didn't exist things would be different. They wouldn't. We always need people who plan and co-ordinate in any kind of functioning society. Which, strangely, existed well before my generation came into existence.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 22 May 22 3.52pm | |
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Originally posted by W12
Almost none of that. Yes Russia wants to “denazify” Ukraine (at least in the south and east although this war may have unintended consequences. Mainly, they always wanted Ukraine to stay neutral and act as a buffer zone which you can argue has somewhat backfired due to Sweden and Finland. No it’s not the “rest of the world” in “cohoots” but mainly our glorious leaders in the US and the UK under the banner of NATO playing geopolitical games and being far too friendly with the military industrial complex who are now being fed billions in tax payers money to supply weapons to extremists. By their own admission western “military advisors” have been on the ground in Ukraine for years. I’m neutral on Putin. I don’t consider him a hero but he’s no mad man or hitler like we are being told. Sorry, that's quite hard to make sense of for me. I still don't understand your stance. You still haven't provided an explanation as to why Russia have invaded Ukraine? You've stated "Mainly, they always wanted Ukraine to stay neutral" I'm struggling to see how ensuring the neutrality of an independent nation is achieved through invading it? I suggested it was to eradicate Nazism but you begin with saying "Almost none of that" to my previous post, which again was essentially summarising that those supporting Ukraine are just arming Nazis, or "extremists" as you also articulated it. You then go on to assert the exact same thing, despite you opening statement, just suggesting the main motive is economical, to move vast amounts of money to the 'military industrial complex' and also playing "Geopolitical games" (which I'd be intrigued to hear your thoughts on). I'm struggling to conceive how on earth this could all be orchestrated on the gamble Putin might invade somewhere, someday by the UK/US? It is Russia who invaded Ukraine if I am not mistaken? Also, in sincerity, if it is just us did we rig Eurovision? Didn't everyone vote for them? Or are we so powerful that the whole of Europe has just fallen for our propaganda and deceit? Because it's certainly not "the rest of the world" as you have clearly stated. I'm not calling Putin a "Hitler or madman" but I feel quite confident in saying this is his move, his war. He went about it in what I would consider a ridiculous attempt to disguise clandestine behaviour. Russian troops are murdering many civilians and also they have not properly identified their intentions or goals in what they are trying to achieve. If it was purely and solely out of noble reasoning, why are they even arresting their own citizens for daring to question the war? Why are people being silenced, imprisoned or worse en masse? My understanding was Russia has invaded Ukraine purely for it's own benefit, it is at the very least a breadbasket overall, to expand territory or maybe even for Putin's own ambitions or again any other theory/motive. This has resulted in an entire sovereign nation and it's civilians being militarily attacked and all the pain and trauma that comes with that. From any stance, it's b100dy awful and will have a profound affect on Europe/the world. I have beef with the powers that be sure, elites, previous powers that have been, the media, so on and so forth. No I don't believe everything I read and I completely accept that we are often fed a narrative designed to subvert us from some awful realities. However, for me you are suggesting that my reality or understanding of what is currently going on, with no real explanation or certainly backing of logic as to a sinister alternative narrative, is incorrect, I am still finding puzzling. The fact this is something that you have chosen to so aggressively and persistently communicate on a football fans' forum, whilst never once straying to anything remotely football related let alone Palace, is at this stage, at the very least, concerning. Edited by Nicholas91 (22 May 2022 3.54pm)
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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Stirlingsays 22 May 22 5.00pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Which plenty of people question! That the effect is observable, doesn't mean the causes are fully understood. For "elite theory" even the effect is imaginary. All that those who propound this stuff seek to do is attribute a convenient cause to natural changes, which are entirely consequent upon the way the modern world has evolved. They want to find something to blame for developments they don't like with the totally nonsensical idea that if only these "elites" didn't exist things would be different. They wouldn't. We always need people who plan and co-ordinate in any kind of functioning society. Which, strangely, existed well before my generation came into existence. You continue to comment upon something you know nothing about. Your commentary here just tells me that you have a conspiracy theory about what elite theory says. It's typical of your commentary - you aren't interested in the truth....you are only interested in protecting what you think of as the establishment.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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BlueJay UK 22 May 22 8.17pm | |
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Originally posted by Ouzo Dan
Here is the founder of the Russian PMC Wagner group Dmitry Utkin a Neo Nazi & friend/advisor of Putin. I still dont get this Nazi angle literally every country in central/eastern Europe has Neo Nazis, I guess Russia should invade every country from Eastern Germany back their borders then. I'd hazard a guess that the siege of Azovstal has made the Azov battalion martyrs & this in time will bring many more to their side, Russia have de-nazified nothing. The Nazi angle is an excuse for invasion, if you watch Russian state media they're branding anyone against them a Nazi. Drum this stuff in enough and some will get led down the garden path by it. This idea that Russia genuinely went in to 'denazify' is absurd to the point of being risible. And the sudden outrage at neo nazis? Half of those using them as a weapon to batter Ukranians weren't far off being bedfellows with these types months earlier. When people become detached from society in basic yet meaningful ways, they are liable to drift towards whatever makes them feel that they're 'in the know' and part of something...anything. Emotionally stunted easy pickings. Sure the mainstream also has pushed narratives, but most people can find a sensible balance. On this topic a sudden transformation into russophile neo-nazi annihilator just shows the staggering and joke contortions people can be made to make on the whim of those pulling their strings.
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W12 22 May 22 9.24pm | |
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Originally posted by Ouzo Dan
Here is the founder of the Russian PMC Wagner group Dmitry Utkin a Neo Nazi & friend/advisor of Putin. I still dont get this Nazi angle literally every country in central/eastern Europe has Neo Nazis, I guess Russia should invade every country from Eastern Germany back their borders then. I'd hazard a guess that the siege of Azovstal has made the Azov battalion martyrs & this in time will bring many more to their side, Russia have de-nazified nothing. The Nazi angle is an excuse for invasion, if you watch Russian state media they're branding anyone against them a Nazi. So your link above is a wikipedia page that has no evidence of links to nazis but when I search for Dmitry Utkin I mostly get the same article from multiple sites that starts with “For the Jews, history repeats itself…” Can you explain this? You do know how many Russians died fighting the nazis right?
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W12 22 May 22 9.26pm | |
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Originally posted by BlueJay
Drum this stuff in enough and some will get led down the garden path by it. This idea that Russia genuinely went in to 'denazify' is absurd to the point of being risible. And the sudden outrage at neo nazis? Half of those using them as a weapon to batter Ukranians weren't far off being bedfellows with these types months earlier. When people become detached from society in basic yet meaningful ways, they are liable to drift towards whatever makes them feel that they're 'in the know' and part of something...anything. Emotionally stunted easy pickings. Sure the mainstream also has pushed narratives, but most people can find a sensible balance. On this topic a sudden transformation into russophile neo-nazi annihilator just shows the staggering and joke contortions people can be made to make on the whim of those pulling their strings.
Why?
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