You say you put great store by representative government, our elected representatives proposing and enacting our laws and policies. Yet you want to rejoin the EU where our elected representatives would be unable to do any of those things.

yes I read it, just dont believe you! you want our elected 'representatives' , who you have admitted lie, to get us back into the EU, to change things? Didnt go too well before did it? Why would it be different now?

That’s of course untrue today as it always was.

There was always a trade off between the obviously positive and supposedly negative aspects of EU membership but we participated in the decision making process for those things delegated to the EU. Things that are better managed collectively and which we continue to be impacted by but can no longer contribute to how they are regulated.

I want our elected representatives to decide to rejoin in some way, probably in some kind of associate capacity initially. I want them to make the fundamental decision to delegate because it’s in our best interests to do so. That decision is though theirs. Not the EU’s. Their's is whether they accept any application.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile trying to describe how democracy works within the EU. It’s been covered in these pages many times. Our representatives would still enact the laws in this country when they are required.

What really matters is what delivers the best outcomes. Not an outdated outlook based on prejudice. If something else delivers then what’s the problem? The last years seem pretty conclusive that we were much better in every way as members.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

That you seem to think that our national Parliament becomes irrelevant if we are members of the EU is what makes me laugh. They would continue, as they do now, to have the ultimate power that decides the future of our country. Remember that Brexit depended on them enabling Article 50 and not the referendum which had no legal implications of any sort.

Yes their responsibilities are modified but they continue to have full control over the important issues. Have you really noticed much difference since we left? We still have budgets and control over fiscal policy. It’s things which are more efficiently done together which are handled at EU level. Even Thatcher understood and accepted the role of subsidiarity.

That you compare the EU with fascist Germany and Italy and with Russia under Lenin is risible. They were authoritarian dictatorships. The EU is a partnership of willing states working together for their mutual benefit.

The diversion onto another argument about the merits of the EU is what is irrelevant. My point was that the way we take decisions, whatever they are, is done by our representatives and not by referendum. We directly vote for those who represent us. They then must be left to do their job. Throwing the future of our country into the winds of chance implicit in any referendum is a stupid thing to even contemplate.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

I am not as cynical as you. My own experience of MPs has been entirely positive. My present one is helping me with a problem and showing great empathy. I was impressed by Steve Barclay when I met him before I moved here, and with Michael Heseltine who I also met several years ago. I think most are honest and hard working and are motivated by a desire to serve. It’s the exceptions who aren’t. It’s the system we use which tends to compromise the ability of people to remain entirely true to their integrity.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.