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US politics

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BlueJay UK 27 May 22 6.11pm
Originally posted by cryrst Defund the police. Motivation to get shot isn’t exactly a prerequisite of an officer. That of course doesn’t alter that innocent lives were lost to a mad s*** head. I think it depends on the situation. I'm sure the details will come out in time, but if they basically just let the gunman mill about around and in the school for a ludicrous amount of time due to fears for their own wellfare, then clearly that is not good enough. If they did so, because say they felt that they could de-escalate the situation and save more lives then that's a different matter. In this situation the children's lives and removing them from danger hold more value than self preservation. If they feel differently they're in the wrong job. You don't become a fire fighter if you're going to fall short of going into a burning building etc. Same with cops. I mean some of this stuff is not sounding good. From NYPost: "A mom of two students at Robb Elementary School says she was handcuffed by officers as the shooter was still inside before she jumped a fence and ran into the school to safely retrieve her children on Tuesday. " "Angeli Rose Gomez, a mother of a second-grader and a third-grader, told the Wall Street Journal she drove 40 miles to the Uvalde school and was one of numerous parents begging and yelling at the officers to enter sooner to take out 18-year-old gunman Salvador Ramos. After a few minutes, she said, a US Marshall placed her in handcuffs, stating that she was under arrest for intervening in an active investigation, according to the Journal. " A 'soccer Mom' shouldn't be braver than the cops. In certain situations you put self preservation aside. Edited by BlueJay (27 May 2022 6.16pm)
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BlueJay

UK 27 May 22 6.11pm

Originally posted by cryrst

Defund the police. Motivation to get shot isn’t exactly a prerequisite of an officer.
That of course doesn’t alter that innocent lives were lost to a mad s*** head.

I think it depends on the situation. I'm sure the details will come out in time, but if they basically just let the gunman mill about around and in the school for a ludicrous amount of time due to fears for their own wellfare, then clearly that is not good enough. If they did so, because say they felt that they could de-escalate the situation and save more lives then that's a different matter. In this situation the children's lives and removing them from danger hold more value than self preservation. If they feel differently they're in the wrong job.

You don't become a fire fighter if you're going to fall short of going into a burning building etc. Same with cops.

I mean some of this stuff is not sounding good. From NYPost: "A mom of two students at Robb Elementary School says she was handcuffed by officers as the shooter was still inside before she jumped a fence and ran into the school to safely retrieve her children on Tuesday. "

"Angeli Rose Gomez, a mother of a second-grader and a third-grader, told the Wall Street Journal she drove 40 miles to the Uvalde school and was one of numerous parents begging and yelling at the officers to enter sooner to take out 18-year-old gunman Salvador Ramos.

After a few minutes, she said, a US Marshall placed her in handcuffs, stating that she was under arrest for intervening in an active investigation, according to the Journal. "

A 'soccer Mom' shouldn't be braver than the cops. In certain situations you put self preservation aside.

Edited by BlueJay (27 May 2022 6.16pm)

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Stirlingsays 27 May 22 6.13pm
Originally posted by cryrst Defund the police. Motivation to get shot isn’t exactly a prerequisite of an officer. That of course doesn’t alter that innocent lives were lost to a mad s*** head. I still can't quite believe that the quality of governance has dropped so low that actual defund arguments - which some democratic revisionists like to paint as fund redirections - were ever entertained, let alone enacted. What relevance it has here I couldn't say but I doubt it's about funding. To hazard a guess it's about 'safety' protocols.....jobsworth adherence to rules when it's obvious that the particular situation demanded that officers had to use common sense and immediately go in and risk their lives to save the lives of little children....not forgetting the two teachers who also lost their lives. How the US got to those 'safety protocols' point when guns and attacks are quite common is something else I can't quite get my head around.....this isn't the first time we have heard about Police hanging around while a shooter murders people inside a building. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 May 22 6.13pm

Originally posted by cryrst

Defund the police. Motivation to get shot isn’t exactly a prerequisite of an officer.
That of course doesn’t alter that innocent lives were lost to a mad s*** head.

I still can't quite believe that the quality of governance has dropped so low that actual defund arguments - which some democratic revisionists like to paint as fund redirections - were ever entertained, let alone enacted.

What relevance it has here I couldn't say but I doubt it's about funding.

To hazard a guess it's about 'safety' protocols.....jobsworth adherence to rules when it's obvious that the particular situation demanded that officers had to use common sense and immediately go in and risk their lives to save the lives of little children....not forgetting the two teachers who also lost their lives.

How the US got to those 'safety protocols' point when guns and attacks are quite common is something else I can't quite get my head around.....this isn't the first time we have heard about Police hanging around while a shooter murders people inside a building.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Spiderman Horsham 27 May 22 6.30pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle To believe it wasn't you would have to believe that those overseeing the election, many of whom were Republicans, were either all corrupt or sufficiently naive to be unaware of tampering. This constant preoccupation with the "Hunter Biden laptop" story is what is depressing. It's the biggest non-story it's possible to imagine even if, which I continue to regard as unlikely, it's all true. Hunter Biden isn't POTUS. Joe Biden is. That some people might have sought access to a prominent politician via a vulnerable family member is nothing new. Nor is that a dad would try to protect his vulnerable son. It's just mud-slinging of the most odious kind, which denigrates serious politics and which we can least afford in these challenging times. Compared to the very real character flaws that led to Trump's actual behaviour, this is nothing. But you are pre occupied with Trump
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Spiderman

Horsham 27 May 22 6.30pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

To believe it wasn't you would have to believe that those overseeing the election, many of whom were Republicans, were either all corrupt or sufficiently naive to be unaware of tampering.

This constant preoccupation with the "Hunter Biden laptop" story is what is depressing. It's the biggest non-story it's possible to imagine even if, which I continue to regard as unlikely, it's all true. Hunter Biden isn't POTUS. Joe Biden is. That some people might have sought access to a prominent politician via a vulnerable family member is nothing new. Nor is that a dad would try to protect his vulnerable son.

It's just mud-slinging of the most odious kind, which denigrates serious politics and which we can least afford in these challenging times. Compared to the very real character flaws that led to Trump's actual behaviour, this is nothing.

But you are pre occupied with Trump

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Spiderman Horsham 27 May 22 6.33pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle No, the general sentiment will do. Whenever I send a link, it is from a source that is generally regarded as reputable. One that has serious journalists who undertake proper research and who have editorial and legal oversight. What comes back from people like you is precisely the opposite. It originates from sources with opinions as their sources, no oversight, no checking for validity. So when I say "read the content and forget the source", it is only directed at those who seek to try to suggest that organisations like the BBC are the equivalent of some keyboard warrior with a chip on his shoulder, and want to dismiss their journalism as biased and worthless. When things arrive from those with the kind of resources at their disposal that the BBC has, it demands to be taken seriously, whatever its conclusions might be. So if Mr D'Souza got published by the BBC it might have to be. Via BitChute, not so. Regarded as reputable from whom?
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Spiderman

Horsham 27 May 22 6.33pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

No, the general sentiment will do.

Whenever I send a link, it is from a source that is generally regarded as reputable. One that has serious journalists who undertake proper research and who have editorial and legal oversight. What comes back from people like you is precisely the opposite. It originates from sources with opinions as their sources, no oversight, no checking for validity.

So when I say "read the content and forget the source", it is only directed at those who seek to try to suggest that organisations like the BBC are the equivalent of some keyboard warrior with a chip on his shoulder, and want to dismiss their journalism as biased and worthless.

When things arrive from those with the kind of resources at their disposal that the BBC has, it demands to be taken seriously, whatever its conclusions might be. So if Mr D'Souza got published by the BBC it might have to be. Via BitChute, not so.

Regarded as reputable from whom?

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Matov 27 May 22 7.26pm
f* the rules in the situations like that. As simple as that. I can make all kinds of arguments about how our notion of duty of care has been allowed to be corrupted by the Left and so on and none of them would be incorrect, offering justification for the delay. But you know. f* the rules. Do what is right, always. Or live with the consequences because anything is better than having to look at yourself in the mirror every morning and live with the shame of knowing you could have done more. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

27 May 22 7.26pm

f*** the rules in the situations like that. As simple as that. I can make all kinds of arguments about how our notion of duty of care has been allowed to be corrupted by the Left and so on and none of them would be incorrect, offering justification for the delay.

But you know. f*** the rules. Do what is right, always. Or live with the consequences because anything is better than having to look at yourself in the mirror every morning and live with the shame of knowing you could have done more.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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BlueJay UK 27 May 22 8.02pm
Originally posted by Matov f* the rules in the situations like that. As simple as that. I can make all kinds of arguments about how our notion of duty of care has been allowed to be corrupted by the Left and so on and none of them would be incorrect, offering justification for the delay. But you know. f* the rules. Do what is right, always. Or live with the consequences because anything is better than having to look at yourself in the mirror every morning and live with the shame of knowing you could have done more. Pretty much. It won't be paperwork and protocol that will be keeping them up at night.
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BlueJay

UK 27 May 22 8.02pm

Originally posted by Matov

Pretty much. It won't be paperwork and protocol that will be keeping them up at night.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 9.58pm
Originally posted by W12 That's called playing the man and not the ball and you are deluded enough to think that Wikipedia is unbiased. You are the deluded one. Anyone, you included, can edit a Wiki entry. Opinions will vary, but overall bias is not present. [Link] Putting any video into context includes knowing where the maker starts from. D'Souza makes no pretence about what his ideological beliefs are. It is therefore important to understand them prior to watching anything he presents. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 9.58pm

Originally posted by W12

That's called playing the man and not the ball and you are deluded enough to think that Wikipedia is unbiased.

You are the deluded one. Anyone, you included, can edit a Wiki entry. Opinions will vary, but overall bias is not present.

[Link]

Putting any video into context includes knowing where the maker starts from. D'Souza makes no pretence about what his ideological beliefs are. It is therefore important to understand them prior to watching anything he presents.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.04pm
Originally posted by Spiderman But you are pre occupied with Trump Not at all. I am preoccupied with bowls at the moment. My attention to Trump is due to him being the worst thing to have happened to western politics in my lifetime. Unless we cauterise the wound to democracy he caused, and rid ourselves of the infection which has spread elsewhere, including here, then I fear for our future. That's not a preoccupation with an individual. It's a defence of our right to enjoy a healthy system of freedom under the law. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.04pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

But you are pre occupied with Trump

Not at all.

I am preoccupied with bowls at the moment.

My attention to Trump is due to him being the worst thing to have happened to western politics in my lifetime. Unless we cauterise the wound to democracy he caused, and rid ourselves of the infection which has spread elsewhere, including here, then I fear for our future.

That's not a preoccupation with an individual. It's a defence of our right to enjoy a healthy system of freedom under the law.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.06pm
Originally posted by Spiderman Regarded as reputable from whom? I said generally, and that's what I mean. Among the general population. Not on the margins or extremes. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.06pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

Regarded as reputable from whom?

I said generally, and that's what I mean.

Among the general population. Not on the margins or extremes.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.27pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays You are entitled to regard opinions from the ADL and the BBC and Cope not Hate as reputable sources: Personally I don't.....I view them as little more than organisations filled with political activists of the neo liberal left and often far left. So I regard anything coming from them in that light. You only regard them as 'reputable' because you agree with their politics. The amount of funding something gets does not equate to its objectivity or honesty. Do you agree with news coming out of official sources in Hungary because its sponsored and has 'reputation status' from the state? No, you don't.....suddenly you find all manner of issues. As for this 'basement' dwellers point. As you are into the 'appeal to authority' fallacy. I could remind you that someone like Academic Agent was a renowned and published academic of decades standing, who graded the highest at his university for 80 years and whose Phd required no corrections. You can disagree with his politics but your smears are just that....smears. I doubt that most of the journalists or 'fact checkers' or anyone else who lies for the system are as knowledgeable as that. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 May 2022 4.47pm) Untrue. I regard organisations like the BBC as reputable because of their editorial guidelines and controls, together with the resources at their disposal. I would not put ADL or Hope not Hate in the same category at all, as they are campaign organisations with clearly stated agendas. The BBC is not state controlled, or influenced. Unlike the media in Hungary and especially Russia, but also in many other parts of the world. Many people have successful academic careers, Neema Parvini being one. Not all hold views which get them sacked from those careers, which forces them to try to monetise the views that got them sacked. No-one stops you admiring him. Indeed, given your respective political world-views, it would be surprising if you didn't. Suggesting his "work" should be regarded as equally relevant to a BBC documentary is specious nonsense. It's an opinion piece, originating from a single source. Him. Nothing more. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.27pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You are entitled to regard opinions from the ADL and the BBC and Cope not Hate as reputable sources: Personally I don't.....I view them as little more than organisations filled with political activists of the neo liberal left and often far left. So I regard anything coming from them in that light.

You only regard them as 'reputable' because you agree with their politics.

The amount of funding something gets does not equate to its objectivity or honesty. Do you agree with news coming out of official sources in Hungary because its sponsored and has 'reputation status' from the state? No, you don't.....suddenly you find all manner of issues.

As for this 'basement' dwellers point.

As you are into the 'appeal to authority' fallacy. I could remind you that someone like Academic Agent was a renowned and published academic of decades standing, who graded the highest at his university for 80 years and whose Phd required no corrections. You can disagree with his politics but your smears are just that....smears.

I doubt that most of the journalists or 'fact checkers' or anyone else who lies for the system are as knowledgeable as that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (27 May 2022 4.47pm)

Untrue. I regard organisations like the BBC as reputable because of their editorial guidelines and controls, together with the resources at their disposal.

I would not put ADL or Hope not Hate in the same category at all, as they are campaign organisations with clearly stated agendas.

The BBC is not state controlled, or influenced. Unlike the media in Hungary and especially Russia, but also in many other parts of the world.

Many people have successful academic careers, Neema Parvini being one. Not all hold views which get them sacked from those careers, which forces them to try to monetise the views that got them sacked.

No-one stops you admiring him. Indeed, given your respective political world-views, it would be surprising if you didn't.

Suggesting his "work" should be regarded as equally relevant to a BBC documentary is specious nonsense. It's an opinion piece, originating from a single source. Him. Nothing more.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.38pm
Originally posted by BlueJay Looks like the police spent more time restraining parents trying to save their kids, then they did trying to extinguish the threat to them. A situation where any response be deemed inadequate perhaps, but police certainly didn't seem in a hurry to act. I think we need to avoid a rush to judgement over this, especially viewed from here, until all the facts are known. Was the shooter actively shooting the kids, whilst the Police stood by and did nothing? Or was he just threatening them? If the latter, they might have decided not to precipitate a crisis and were awaiting reinforcements, trained negotiators or dog teams. Without body armour (which the gunman was wearing) any response needed to be proportionate to the immediate threat. It seems he was outside the school for a while before entering. Was he making threats then? Were they trying to talk him out of being stupid? For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 27 May 22 10.38pm

Originally posted by BlueJay

Looks like the police spent more time restraining parents trying to save their kids, then they did trying to extinguish the threat to them. A situation where any response be deemed inadequate perhaps, but police certainly didn't seem in a hurry to act.

I think we need to avoid a rush to judgement over this, especially viewed from here, until all the facts are known.

Was the shooter actively shooting the kids, whilst the Police stood by and did nothing? Or was he just threatening them? If the latter, they might have decided not to precipitate a crisis and were awaiting reinforcements, trained negotiators or dog teams.

Without body armour (which the gunman was wearing) any response needed to be proportionate to the immediate threat.

It seems he was outside the school for a while before entering. Was he making threats then? Were they trying to talk him out of being stupid?

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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HKOwen Hong Kong 27 May 22 10.50pm
Originally posted by Spiderman But you are pre occupied with Trump Very true, an obsessive Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.
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HKOwen

Hong Kong 27 May 22 10.50pm

Originally posted by Spiderman

But you are pre occupied with Trump

Very true, an obsessive

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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