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legaleagle  05 Apr 15 11.06am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 05 Apr 2015 10.30am
Quote salop-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 9.55am
Let's hope so!
You talk of 'British' values.
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 Stirlingsays 05 Apr 15 11.25am |
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Quote legaleagle at 25 Mar 2015 10.03pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 25 Mar 2015 9.01pm
Quote legaleagle at 25 Mar 2015 8.31pm
Read the man's own words above.They are very clear.Notwithstanding the attempts of revisionists on the right later to try to distort Churchill's views at that time (late 1940s),so that even you now spout the revisionism as "its well known that" as if fact.If you still disagree,so be it and let's move on. Oh the folly of selective revision. Churchill also said, 'If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea' He also wrote, in the same article where he refers to a 'united states of Europe'. `We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not comprised.' Maybe you didn't know those words. In pro-Europeans who use....nay abuse Churchill's memory by taking his words out of the context of a destroyed Europe are armchair Internet researchers. The world of 1947 is massively different to today....Churchill forsaw Britain acting as a kind of god-parent to a European entity. Sorry legal.....He just wasn't an egalitarian lefty.
Churchill's oft quoted remarks about choosing between Europe and the open sea (so often misapplied by Euro Sceptics)were made in 1944,a few years before the speeches I have referred to.The remarks were made to General De Gaulle in the context of a dispute between them relating to President Roosevelt. Shortly before the D-Day landings Churchill told him every time Britain had to “decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea that we shall choose.” Churchill went on:"Every time I have to decide between you and Roosevelt,..I shall always choose Roosevelt.” Nothing whatsoever to do with a post war united Europe. I note the article you quote from. But that doesn't take away from the speeches I have also quoted from in c.1947.I believe "your article" was published in I think February 1930 and written for an American readership,many many years earlier and before the rise of Hitler and the horrors of World War Two which formed the basis for Churchill's post-war views and speeches. Second, the question of Churchill being a "lefty" or not (and I agree he most certainly wasn't) is completely irrelevant,as is your misguided assumption that the "founding fathers" of European were some sort of egalitarian "lefty" grouping (ie that well known anti-lefty,De Gaulle).It is overlooked today the extent to which pre-Maggie the Conservative Party used to be anything but an almost uniformly anti-European unity grouping.There is a danger in reducing any and every discussion point into "left" and "right" and seeking to pigeon hole it that way.
Yes, I took those comments from the article you yourself read. I did it to see you type out the context behind the comments.....As you did it did you yourself question the 'why' and context behind Churchill's supposedly 'pro-EU' comments?. When I have questioned the validity of you using Churchill's quotes as somehow evidence for Churchill supporting what the EU is today you just replied....to paraphrase, 'he has to be taken at his word'. Yet here you almost stumbled over yourself correctly typing out the context behind Churchill's 'open sea' comment. It's true....His comment does not mean much outside a war context. However, Churchill was obviously very pro Atlantic and not someone given to trusting Europe's leaders....But it's correct that the context can't really be used as evidence for much.....That's why I used it....To highlight what you yourself had done.....For example I noticed no context behind, 'united state of Europe'. You don't wish to comment upon the wider context of his psst war pro EU support because it doesn't support what the EU actually is today....If that had been up for discussion Churchill would have been inherently suspicious....I just can't see him signing away Britain's parliamentary powers to EU bodies. Like I said before, Churchill's post war support for a European union was within the context of a mainly destroyed Europe and a Europe that economically was still significantly behind Britain. Supporting a union was common sense. I indeed support an EU union of a looser type like most Ukip supporters themselves...Just not what it has grown into. I want to trade and cooperate on mutual interest grounds...Not merge into a state with no borders. Churchill's words are often taken out of context and used to suggest that he would support today's EU.....That's just not playing fair. When I've researched is that he didn't actually intend Britain to become a internal member of the EU....He didn't and indeed that didn't happen...That's because we didn't apply to be within that union. He intended Britain to be...Something like an affiliated partner, a consultant......A pick and chooser if you will. Someth8ing not too different to what the Toreis and Ukip want now.....Though Ukip understand that you have to leave first. Any pro European using Churchill's post war comments on a smashed Europe to somehow suggest that he would support a Britain that had itself voted away a large chuck of its law making powers to European bodies is in my opinion in just wrong. Churchill was first and fulmost for the realm....A pragmatist but also a parliamentarian. While it is admittedly foolish to be too certain of a dead man's political views from a different era I do bulk at the 're-making' of Churchill. A lot of pro-EU people that I'm aware of (nearly all) are left wing.....A large group within that core are egalitarian and against national borders or any kind of nationalism. Churchill can't be signed up to that......As you recognise Churchill's politics were...on the face of it...far removed from the usual EU supporter's views....Churchill was a mild nationalist who always put his country's interests first as he saw it.....Like I say I just can't see him signing away the parliament's powers. Maybe none of us should use Churchill over the EU.....It's fitting a square into a circle simply because what he was talking about is just so far removed from today's reality. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Apr 2015 11.29am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 05 Apr 15 11.37am |
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Quote legaleagle at 05 Apr 2015 11.06am
Quote Stirlingsays at 05 Apr 2015 10.30am
Quote salop-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 9.55am
Let's hope so!
You talk of 'British' values.
That's a bit silly legal.....But a tad predictable perhaps given how you and the left tend to stereotype Ukip supporters. I didn't say there were any British values. This seemingly left wing chap mentioned them. To suggest that human traits have some exclusive national bearing is just ridiculous. Different cultures share 'values' with many other cultures.....Some may emaphasize some over others perhaps but human traits are human traits. Really legal....really.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 05 Apr 15 11.55am |
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"You talk of 'British' values. Forgive me Stirling,for I am clearly but a fool for thinking that when you wrote the above you had some concept of what "british values" are (in your view) in mind . Silly,silly, me
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| Stirlingsays 05 Apr 15 12.01pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 05 Apr 2015 11.55am
"You talk of 'British' values. Forgive me Stirling,for I am clearly but a fool for thinking that when you wrote the above you had some concept of what "british values" are (in your view) in mind . Silly,silly, me
Forgive me. You're still an enjoyable and good debater.....Just on opposite tracks to me. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Apr 2015 12.03pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| salop-eagle 05 Apr 15 12.12pm |
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I don't know what 'British values' are! Yet it is a phrase repeatedly wheeled out by the establishment as some undefined code of morality to which true Brits can claim ownership and to which 'Johny Foreigner' should aspire. Hence the quotation marks! I think, if pressed, those who coined it might include tolerance, fairplay and a sense of respect for others rather than isolationism, self interest and xenophobia!
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| Stirlingsays 05 Apr 15 12.27pm |
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Quote salop-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 12.12pm
I don't know what 'British values' are! Yet it is a phrase repeatedly wheeled out by the establishment as some undefined code of morality to which true Brits can claim ownership and to which 'Johny Foreigner' should aspire. Hence the quotation marks! I think, if pressed, those who coined it might include tolerance, fairplay and a sense of respect for others rather than isolationism, self interest and xenophobia!
Ukip aren't pushing isolationism....I don't support isolationism myself. We will still trade and cooperate with Europe......We are in Nato.......It isn't 'if you aren't with us, you are against us'. Ukip aren't pushing xenophobia....Of course there are some members who are and are just jumping on the bandwagon....But they don't represent what the party is about. I know of foreign born people who have issues with the 'extent' of immigration, one polish women here in Wisbech who has been here twenty years.....It's about numbers and control of borders. Ukip isn't interested in stopping immigration. Immigration is important for many reasons....But an open door is damaging. Every country should control its borders and its national interest. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Apr 2015 12.29pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 Apr 15 12.58pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 05 Apr 2015 12.27pm
Quote salop-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 12.12pm
I don't know what 'British values' are! Yet it is a phrase repeatedly wheeled out by the establishment as some undefined code of morality to which true Brits can claim ownership and to which 'Johny Foreigner' should aspire. Hence the quotation marks! I think, if pressed, those who coined it might include tolerance, fairplay and a sense of respect for others rather than isolationism, self interest and xenophobia!
Ukip aren't pushing isolationism....I don't support isolationism myself. We will still trade and cooperate with Europe......We are in Nato.......It isn't 'if you aren't with us, you are against us'. Ukip aren't pushing xenophobia....Of course there are some members who are and are just jumping on the bandwagon....But they don't represent what the party is about. I know of foreign born people who have issues with the 'extent' of immigration, one polish women here in Wisbech who has been here twenty years.....It's about numbers and control of borders. Ukip isn't interested in stopping immigration. Immigration is important for many reasons....But an open door is damaging. Every country should control its borders and its national interest. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Apr 2015 12.29pm) UKIP may not be pushing xenophobia according to you (I disagree with you on this) however they do seem to be followed by a lot of xenophobes.
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| Tom-the-eagle Croydon 05 Apr 15 1.23pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 05 Apr 2015 12.58pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 05 Apr 2015 12.27pm
Quote salop-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 12.12pm
I don't know what 'British values' are! Yet it is a phrase repeatedly wheeled out by the establishment as some undefined code of morality to which true Brits can claim ownership and to which 'Johny Foreigner' should aspire. Hence the quotation marks! I think, if pressed, those who coined it might include tolerance, fairplay and a sense of respect for others rather than isolationism, self interest and xenophobia!
Ukip aren't pushing isolationism....I don't support isolationism myself. We will still trade and cooperate with Europe......We are in Nato.......It isn't 'if you aren't with us, you are against us'. Ukip aren't pushing xenophobia....Of course there are some members who are and are just jumping on the bandwagon....But they don't represent what the party is about. I know of foreign born people who have issues with the 'extent' of immigration, one polish women here in Wisbech who has been here twenty years.....It's about numbers and control of borders. Ukip isn't interested in stopping immigration. Immigration is important for many reasons....But an open door is damaging. Every country should control its borders and its national interest. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Apr 2015 12.29pm) UKIP may not be pushing xenophobia according to you (I disagree with you on this) however they do seem to be followed by a lot of xenophobes. No Nick, its Ukip’s detractors like yourself who are keen (almost desperate in fact) to make them out to be xenophobes. As a man of mixed heritage there is no way I would follow Ukip if the party were anti immigrants or had raciest overtones. All Ukip and their followers wish for is a sensible immigration policy where we can control the number of entries into this country, much like Australia or most other non EU countries employ. This will in turn lead to being able to plan for better housing, school places, NHS etc.
"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit |
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 05 Apr 15 1.25pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 05 Apr 2015 11.06am
Quote Stirlingsays at 05 Apr 2015 10.30am
Quote salop-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 9.55am
Let's hope so!
You talk of 'British' values.
Had this conversation with Funty 10 years ago, British values are a bunch of clichés base on an individuals preconceptions. Whether whippets, clogs, cloths, caps, and fish and chips or Spitfires over the Downs, moustaches, blonde popsies, and a pint of wallop down the boozer, or something else entirely.
"Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support." |
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| imbored UK 05 Apr 15 1.49pm |
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Foreigners!!!! With HIV!!!! Edited by imbored (05 Apr 2015 1.50pm)
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 Apr 15 2.31pm |
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Quote Tom-the-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 1.23pm
Quote nickgusset at 05 Apr 2015 12.58pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 05 Apr 2015 12.27pm
Quote salop-eagle at 05 Apr 2015 12.12pm
I don't know what 'British values' are! Yet it is a phrase repeatedly wheeled out by the establishment as some undefined code of morality to which true Brits can claim ownership and to which 'Johny Foreigner' should aspire. Hence the quotation marks! I think, if pressed, those who coined it might include tolerance, fairplay and a sense of respect for others rather than isolationism, self interest and xenophobia!
Ukip aren't pushing isolationism....I don't support isolationism myself. We will still trade and cooperate with Europe......We are in Nato.......It isn't 'if you aren't with us, you are against us'. Ukip aren't pushing xenophobia....Of course there are some members who are and are just jumping on the bandwagon....But they don't represent what the party is about. I know of foreign born people who have issues with the 'extent' of immigration, one polish women here in Wisbech who has been here twenty years.....It's about numbers and control of borders. Ukip isn't interested in stopping immigration. Immigration is important for many reasons....But an open door is damaging. Every country should control its borders and its national interest. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Apr 2015 12.29pm) UKIP may not be pushing xenophobia according to you (I disagree with you on this) however they do seem to be followed by a lot of xenophobes. No Nick, its Ukip’s detractors like yourself who are keen (almost desperate in fact) to make them out to be xenophobes. As a man of mixed heritage there is no way I would follow Ukip if the party were anti immigrants or had raciest overtones. All Ukip and their followers wish for is a sensible immigration policy where we can control the number of entries into this country, much like Australia or most other non EU countries employ. This will in turn lead to being able to plan for better housing, school places, NHS etc.
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