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CONservative government incompetence.
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 nead1  17 Oct 22 11.41pm |
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100% agree!!
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Teddy Eagle  17 Oct 22 11.47pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Did a majority of people vote to leave the EU? Or did 52% of those entitled to vote, and bothered to vote, so decide? If you included all those most impacted, our young people, how big a difference would that have made? If you had asked everybody in 2020 to confirm their decision, in the light of all they had experienced and learned, since 2016, let alone asked them now, how do you think they would vote? No democratic decision is set in stone for all time. Events change things. People are entitled to change their minds. Electorates change as the old pass on and the young become of age. Because Brexit was done in 2020 is no reason it ought not be undone in 2023. It's been a monumental failure. Nothing positive has arrived because of it, nor are any even in sight, whilst a lot of negatives have. In todays world the last place we ought to be is alone, and whilst there are clearly still some Farage clones bleating about being able to "make our own decisions" being more important than the quality of life and safety, I don't believe they are anything more now than a noisy relic of yesterday. Truss made her own decisions. Look where that got us! From one of the most trusted and reliable partners, whose word was our bond, to an economic nut case on the level of Greece or Italy. No, Brexit was a disaster and the sooner the chorus for re-entry becomes deafening the happier I will be. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (17 Oct 2022 11.14pm) That's democracy for you - those who can be bothered to vote decide the outcome.
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HKOwen  Hong Kong 17 Oct 22 11.50pm |
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Anybody who wants to be subject to the rule and law by other nations which their country did not vote for or has any power to remove should move to the EU. If the EU survives it will be a federal Europe in all but name. The move to an EU military is continuing. I don't agree with the " having a seat at the table " argument.
People better understand the coming years will require belt tightening , the days of unearned instant gratification based on cheap credit are over. This will be global The future really is looking bleak Issues are now argued mainly by ideologues who will not be moved by any argument. I am no Trump fan as an example, but neither will I constantly attack him based on a rabid participation in the anti Trump echo chamber. Trump was right about Russian energy and the crisis now caused by the invasion of Ukraine. I use this as an example of where partisanship will not allow any deviation from the path of obsessive Trump bashing.
I am prepared to change a view based on changing circumstances.
Edited by HKOwen (18 Oct 2022 12.00am)
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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| HKOwen Hong Kong 18 Oct 22 12.02am |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
That's democracy for you - those who can be bothered to vote decide the outcome. TE, you are wasting your time trying to argue or debate with entrenched views that are always correct.
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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cryrst  The garden of England 18 Oct 22 5.42am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Did a majority of people vote to leave the EU? Or did 52% of those entitled to vote, and bothered to vote, so decide? If you included all those most impacted, our young people, how big a difference would that have made? If you had asked everybody in 2020 to confirm their decision, in the light of all they had experienced and learned, since 2016, let alone asked them now, how do you think they would vote? No democratic decision is set in stone for all time. Events change things. People are entitled to change their minds. Electorates change as the old pass on and the young become of age. Because Brexit was done in 2020 is no reason it ought not be undone in 2023. It's been a monumental failure. Nothing positive has arrived because of it, nor are any even in sight, whilst a lot of negatives have. In todays world the last place we ought to be is alone, and whilst there are clearly still some Farage clones bleating about being able to "make our own decisions" being more important than the quality of life and safety, I don't believe they are anything more now than a noisy relic of yesterday. Truss made her own decisions. Look where that got us! From one of the most trusted and reliable partners, whose word was our bond, to an economic nut case on the level of Greece or Italy. No, Brexit was a disaster and the sooner the chorus for re-entry becomes deafening the happier I will be. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (17 Oct 2022 11.14pm) Truss was put in position to be voted for by the membership; by MPs. The very ones you want to change a decision about brexit. If truss has gone so bad why would asking the same MPs to renage on brexit fill you with so much confidence?
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| Matov 18 Oct 22 7.58am |
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Originally posted by HKOwen
Anybody who wants to be subject to the rule and law by other nations which their country did not vote for or has any power to remove should move to the EU. If the EU survives it will be a federal Europe in all but name. The move to an EU military is continuing. I don't agree with the " having a seat at the table " argument. Edited by HKOwen (17 Oct 2022 11.57pm) Edited by HKOwen (18 Oct 2022 12.00am) Until about 6 months ago, I would have agreed with all of this. And then came Ukraine. And the destruction of that pipe line in the Baltic, effectively making Germany hostage. If the EU was striving openly to be a federal entity with its own military infrastructure that was free of US reliance, I would actually be all for it. But it won't. The coup against Truss is all about effectively seeking to hold the door open for Labour to win the next election. With a stonking majority meaning we can go right back into the EU. Under a US stooge like Starmer. They want us in the EU to squash any federalist moves. They want us in the EU to squash any moves to make Europe not dependent on NATO. They want us in the EU to ensure US hegemony continues. One thing that always puzzled me about the Remain campaign was that it never actually made much of the potential of the EU. Of how this project truly could be a wonderful thing. Instead it was all negatives, all about effectively brow-beating people into remaining within in it. Against this notion of the UK's only role in the EU being to ensure US hegemony, it actually makes perfect sense. As does the general negativity towards it whilst we were in it. Washington wants the UK back in the EU to keep it in line. That is it.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Oct 22 10.40am |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
So no difference except one suits the agenda. There is a huge difference between being economical with the truth (not necessarily telling everyone, everything) and telling outright lies. Who runs for the Democrats in 2024 is of critical importance. I expect, and hope, that they will choose a completely clean slate. I like Harris, but she has been damaged by the constant character assassination. Biden won't run, of that I am sure. I hope they find a youthful, charismatic and probably female personality that people can believe in.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Oct 22 10.49am |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
That's democracy for you - those who can be bothered to vote decide the outcome. The suggestion challenged was that there was a majority of the people in favour. All I was questioning was the wider truth of that, not whether in the method used there was. As no referendum is part of our democratic system it cannot be claimed that a majority of us decided. When our MPs endorsed the decision (which for me was bottling their actual responsibility to vote with their consciences) was when it became democratic. How do you know how either Greece or Italy would be performing if they were outside the EU?
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Forest Hillbilly  in a hidey-hole 18 Oct 22 10.55am |
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UK politics has never been pretty or scandal-free. However, I think what Boris Johnson did during his tenure as PM (and even before that, as Mayor for London) took the UK to a new low of what is acceptable. Now, without his leadership and Charisma, the Government seem (and indeed are) totally clueless. Their inadequacies are exposed for all to see, and the population are suffering. And things are going to get worse. The new laws introduced this year are part of a clampdown on potential protests. The Tories are quietly bracing themselves and seeking to minimalise civil unrest. Impose a start and finish time It will also become a crime to fail to follow restrictions the protesters "ought" to have known about, even if they have not received a direct order from an officer."
I disengage, I turn the page. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 18 Oct 22 11.05am |
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Originally posted by cryrst
Truss was put in position to be voted for by the membership; by MPs. The very ones you want to change a decision about brexit. If truss has gone so bad why would asking the same MPs to renage on brexit fill you with so much confidence? Truss was put in position via a daft system, which, via tactical voting, meant that the MPs offered a choice they neither wanted, nor expected to win. As a group they overwhelmingly rejected her ideas and could see, as I and many others could, where they would lead us. It's the system which is wrong. Not the MPs, at least as a whole. Give them the freedom to do what they are supposed to do, without the need to keep looking over their shoulders at a bunch of activists who might deselect them, and at the whips who could get them thrown out of the party, and we would soon restore faith in their integrity. We wouldn't always agree with them, but we could respect their honesty.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| HKOwen Hong Kong 18 Oct 22 11.16am |
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This is supposed to be A UK politics thread which is morphing into a US politics thread, so I will post in that vein. I whole heartedly support anyone who can promote Kamala Harris as the next nominee for the Democrats, if only there was a way to make that happen. If anyone wants to know how Harris moved up in US politics check out her well documented relationship with Willie Brown. Apart from the sleeping her way up the political pole she is the Democrat version of Pailin.
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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| HKOwen Hong Kong 18 Oct 22 11.17am |
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Double post Edited by HKOwen (18 Oct 2022 11.18am)
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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