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CONservative government incompetence.
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 Teddy Eagle  17 Oct 22 1.54pm |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
That was always my assessment but a very uninformed, anecdotal and not well researched one. With equal effort Biden seems to be just as unreliable for his own reasons but I would suggest his 'untruths' may be slightly more malevolent as opposed to reckless. Whilst a fan of neither I do still stand bemused with the stance that Biden is somehow an improvement upon Trump through characteristic assessment alone. Somebody who seems to be regarded as a proclaimer of untruths, senile (at best), unintelligent and riddled with 'family' problems is hardly the solution to anything. Furthermore, he seems to have a political history quite contradictory of the stance/character he is now trying to present which stinks of being disingenuous, deceitful and conniving. I care not much for US Politics, not because I see it as unimportant (it very obviously is) but as a charade masquerading as something other than that it ought be. The whole Trump vs Biden saga seems to be predicated upon this. You'd also think the President of the USA would be proud to be American instead of claiming to be from somewhere his family left 200 years ago.
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Nicholas91  The Democratic Republic of Kent 17 Oct 22 2.25pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
You'd also think the President of the USA would be proud to be American instead of claiming to be from somewhere his family left 200 years ago. Once again, seems to be somewhat deceitful and disingenuous. Not that he's alone in that Presidential bracket but it's hardly a reason to favour him over Trump. He's about as Irish as a croissant.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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silvertop  Portishead 17 Oct 22 4.14pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
An interesting point, isn't it? Is malicious lying preferable to incompetence in a politician? I was commenting wholly on honesty rather than competence. You can probably be entirely dishonest and yet a brilliant statesman. Ask Machiavelli. On Trump, I don't think I need to comment on his competence as surely the facts speak for themselves.
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| silvertop Portishead 17 Oct 22 4.20pm |
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Originally posted by Nicholas91
Once again, seems to be somewhat deceitful and disingenuous. Not that he's alone in that Presidential bracket but it's hardly a reason to favour him over Trump. He's about as Irish as a croissant. Follows a long history of the Democrats aligning themselves to the important Irish American vote. And why Republican governments are (at least overtly) cozier to the UK, even (ironically) under Labour.
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| Matov 17 Oct 22 5.47pm |
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Originally posted by nead1
Perhaps you would like to clarify what you mean as "a real Brexit"? It might then be possible to comment on your views in a more reasoned manner.
I would have happily had a version of free-movement with EU countries but strictly limited immigration from outside of it. And any civil servant who dragged their feet, out straight away. In short, a far more brighter and bolder version than what we got. Yes, I accept Covid is/was the game changer on all sorts of levels but still, there was no sense of the dynamic. But now.,,we are sliding back into it on the back of all I can see as being an almost totally manufactured 'financial crisis'. So therefore England, which over-whelming voted for Brexit, needs to find its own way now. The UK is over.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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 SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 17 Oct 22 5.53pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
I would have happily had a version of free-movement with EU countries but strictly limited immigration from outside of it. And any civil servant who dragged their feet, out straight away. In short, a far more brighter and bolder version than what we got. Yes, I accept Covid is/was the game changer on all sorts of levels but still, there was no sense of the dynamic. But now.,,we are sliding back into it on the back of all I can see as being an almost totally manufactured 'financial crisis'. So therefore England, which over-whelming voted for Brexit, needs to find its own way now. The UK is over. Long term this could be viable, sure Short to medium term would be disastrous – you are aware how long it can take and how expensive/labour intensive it is to negotiate individual trade deals? Plus the fact that the economy would be tanking so fast in response to a clean break exit with no deal you'd be negotiating from a position of weakness. Ergo eliminating any benefits of this route entirely... Ultimately it would end up in a massive series of U-Turns...
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| Matov 17 Oct 22 6.17pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Long term this could be viable, sure Short to medium term would be disastrous – you are aware how long it can take and how expensive/labour intensive it is to negotiate individual trade deals? Plus the fact that the economy would be tanking so fast in response to a clean break exit with no deal you'd be negotiating from a position of weakness. Ergo eliminating any benefits of this route entirely... Ultimately it would end up in a massive series of U-Turns... Long term is the point. We voted to leave the EU because a majority of people wanted a different future for the UK. If we had a political leadership worthy of that title, it could have played it as a national project. Being honest about the sacrifices required. Instead we just got BS. A political elite, backed up the Civil Service, who had zero interest in the UK making the kind of structural changes necessary. When we end up back in the EU, it will be a case of stabbing England in the back. Time to go it properly alone.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 17 Oct 22 7.44pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
Long term is the point. We voted to leave the EU because a majority of people wanted a different future for the UK. If we had a political leadership worthy of that title, it could have played it as a national project. Being honest about the sacrifices required. Instead we just got BS. A political elite, backed up the Civil Service, who had zero interest in the UK making the kind of structural changes necessary. When we end up back in the EU, it will be a case of stabbing England in the back. Time to go it properly alone. You can be as honest as you like about sacrifices but if it hits people hard what has happened over the last few days will always happen. Short term pain long term gain doesn’t work and will never work in government if it hits people in the pocket. Doesn’t matter how hard you sell them a long term dream Bit naive to think otherwise IMO. Also I’d wager not everyone who voted for brexit wanted your take on it. So what you’re saying is basically unachievable even if it might have worked long term Edited by SW19 CPFC (17 Oct 2022 7.45pm)
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 17 Oct 22 10.41pm |
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Originally posted by silvertop
I know what you are trying to say so I will decline the offer to get bogged down in semantics! Fact is, even if they were voted in by 20% of their constituency's population, they have promised to act in the best interests of 100%. If their duty and conscience (I know, more theory than practice) dictates that voting for X candidate will serve that 100% the best, then they have cast a vote for and in the name of c.100,000 people (whether their constituents agree with that or not). I don't though believe it is just semantics. It's a really critical issue which a huge number of people either don't understand or, worse, don't care about. Once we choose our MP our job is done and theirs starts. Whether we agree with what their decisions are is immaterial, as some will always not suit us as individuals. What matters is that they take informed decisions which they truly believe to be in our collective best interests. Even if we disagree, so long as they take those decisions with integrity and candour, they can be respected. Looking at the current situation demonstrates this quite well. Truss has shown very little integrity and less candour and proved all I said about her during the campaign to be justified. Hunt, who was my own preferred candidate (which was received with abuse and scorn in these pages) is demonstrating considerable integrity and great candour. Being up front with people earns respect, even when the news is painful.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 17 Oct 22 10.51pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Of course but Biden was being praised for not being a pathological liar, a pretty low bar you'd think, when he's no more truthful than the rest of them. Being economical with the truth is, regrettably, a necessity for many political situations, if you are going to avoid making things worse. Trump though didn't do that. He told outright lies, often saying the first thing that came into his head. Trump took being a "bad" President to a completely new level. Biden's job was to get him out of the WH and then help try to stabilise things. That's not been helped by Trumps continuing lies and endorsement of those who hang on his coat-tails as a quick ride to power.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Teddy Eagle 17 Oct 22 11.05pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Being economical with the truth is, regrettably, a necessity for many political situations, if you are going to avoid making things worse. Trump though didn't do that. He told outright lies, often saying the first thing that came into his head. Trump took being a "bad" President to a completely new level. Biden's job was to get him out of the WH and then help try to stabilise things. That's not been helped by Trumps continuing lies and endorsement of those who hang on his coat-tails as a quick ride to power. So no difference except one suits the agenda.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 17 Oct 22 11.13pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
Long term is the point. We voted to leave the EU because a majority of people wanted a different future for the UK. If we had a political leadership worthy of that title, it could have played it as a national project. Being honest about the sacrifices required. Instead we just got BS. A political elite, backed up the Civil Service, who had zero interest in the UK making the kind of structural changes necessary. When we end up back in the EU, it will be a case of stabbing England in the back. Time to go it properly alone. Did a majority of people vote to leave the EU? Or did 52% of those entitled to vote, and bothered to vote, so decide? If you included all those most impacted, our young people, how big a difference would that have made? If you had asked everybody in 2020 to confirm their decision, in the light of all they had experienced and learned, since 2016, let alone asked them now, how do you think they would vote? No democratic decision is set in stone for all time. Events change things. People are entitled to change their minds. Electorates change as the old pass on and the young become of age. Because Brexit was done in 2020 is no reason it ought not be undone in 2023. It's been a monumental failure. Nothing positive has arrived because of it, nor are any even in sight, whilst a lot of negatives have. In todays world the last place we ought to be is alone, and whilst there are clearly still some Farage clones bleating about being able to "make our own decisions" being more important than the quality of life and safety, I don't believe they are anything more now than a noisy relic of yesterday. Truss made her own decisions. Look where that got us! From one of the most trusted and reliable partners, whose word was our bond, to an economic nut case on the level of Greece or Italy. No, Brexit was a disaster and the sooner the chorus for re-entry becomes deafening the happier I will be. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (17 Oct 2022 11.14pm)
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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