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Confederate Flag

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Stirlingsays Flag 17 Jul 15 2.39pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote mcduh at 17 Jul 2015 2.33pm

No.

No one in America gets to fly this flag anymore. No one with any motivation except trolling gets to fly this flag and be civilly asked what their intentions are.

No one in Europe gets to fly this stupid flag anymore unless they are an unapologetic skinhead.

And I will paypal any of you a dollar three-eighty if you post a video of yourself using the back of your hand (like a Southern gentleman, calling on the duellist tradition of the Old World) to slap anyone you see displaying one.


Intolerant prejudiced tosh.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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blanksight Flag Thornton heath 17 Jul 15 2.44pm Send a Private Message to blanksight Add blanksight as a friend

Quote mcduh at 17 Jul 2015 2.33pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 2.25pm

That is unreasonable to me. The confederate flag can be flown by people to mean other things than slavery....Independence from the North, Pride in a Southern identity. People should be given the benefit of the doubt before you stereotype them as racists.


No.

No one in America gets to fly this flag anymore. No one with any motivation except trolling gets to fly this flag and be civilly asked what their intentions are.

No one in Europe gets to fly this stupid flag anymore unless they are an unapologetic skinhead.

And I will paypal any of you a dollar three-eighty if you post a video of yourself using the back of your hand (like a Southern gentleman, calling on the duellist tradition of the Old World) to slap anyone you see displaying one.

Actually the flag is pretty common among certain types of middle aged fans of country music or americana, motorbikes etc. over here. It really isn't seen as racist by that many people. That may or may not be ignorance, but it certainly doesn't make them skinheads. The flag being talked about being waved by the HF CERTAINLY isn't about racism. Here in the UK we are pretty used to having our culture appropriated by americans in an ignorant way, but we accept there is little we can do about it. This is just the same thing happening in reverse. Until the recent news stories I'd always associated the Confederate flag simply with the southern states, and had never realised that it was seen as racist imagery, and I believe that is true of many people outside the States.


Edited by blanksight (17 Jul 2015 2.47pm)

 


I'd rather be a FREE MAN in my grave
than living as a PUPPET or a SLAVE

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mcduh Flag 17 Jul 15 2.45pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

And here in the link below we see the young man who shot up the church in South Carolina, killing innocents while screaming misguided and misanthropic nonsense, an act which sparked off the debate over the Confederate flag once again....

bedecked in his not-even-MA-1, resplendent with patches displaying a simple sentiment of independence from the former colonial powers and pride in someone's identity.

[Link]


 

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mcduh Flag 17 Jul 15 2.51pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

Yes, blanksight, that is understandable.

But it's 2015 and information is freely accessible and everyone can understand simple realities from the POV of others now.

No one gets to blaze the Confederate flag without the assumption being made that that person is a racist anymore.

[Link]

I think the big takeaway here is that the HF don't have it in the patchwork flag anymore, or otherwise display it, and neither does anyone else in Selhurst, correct? So you armchair libertarians can fight as much as you like for any individual's right to be misinformed, willfully avoidant, or just purely racist, but those of us who think it's bad taste are happy it's not going to be seen among Palace support anymore.

Edited by mcduh (17 Jul 2015 2.51pm)

 

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blanksight Flag Thornton heath 17 Jul 15 3.02pm Send a Private Message to blanksight Add blanksight as a friend

Quote mcduh at 17 Jul 2015 2.45pm

And here in the link below we see the young man who shot up the church in South Carolina, killing innocents while screaming misguided and misanthropic nonsense, an act which sparked off the debate over the Confederate flag once again....

bedecked in his not-even-MA-1, resplendent with patches displaying a simple sentiment of independence from the former colonial powers and pride in someone's identity.

[Link]


And here is Anders Breivik in his fake military uniform next to a red Cross Pattee, supposed to symbolise the Knights Templar. Some people have associated the use of the Cross Pattee with Nazism, but does that make it's use racist? It is used by:

The state of Montenegro
The design of the Victoria Cross
The American Distinguished Flying Cross
Various football/rugby/sports clubs
Various military units
Various company logos
The Alpha Tau Omega fraternity
Bagdes and awards of U.S. Firefighters
Marksmanship badges of the U.S. Army and U.S.M.C.
Many bikers, heavy metal fans etc.
Some Freemasons
The crowns of a number of monarchs

Is the use by those organisations to be taken as an endorsement of Nazism, or of Breivik?

Edited by blanksight (17 Jul 2015 3.03pm)

brevik.jpg Attachment: brevik.jpg (45.26Kb)

 


I'd rather be a FREE MAN in my grave
than living as a PUPPET or a SLAVE

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blanksight Flag Thornton heath 17 Jul 15 3.06pm Send a Private Message to blanksight Add blanksight as a friend

Quote mcduh at 17 Jul 2015 2.51pm

Yes, blanksight, that is understandable.

But it's 2015 and information is freely accessible and everyone can understand simple realities from the POV of others now.

No one gets to blaze the Confederate flag without the assumption being made that that person is a racist anymore.

[Link]

I think the big takeaway here is that the HF don't have it in the patchwork flag anymore, or otherwise display it, and neither does anyone else in Selhurst, correct? So you armchair libertarians can fight as much as you like for any individual's right to be misinformed, willfully avoidant, or just purely racist, but those of us who think it's bad taste are happy it's not going to be seen among Palace support anymore.

Edited by mcduh (17 Jul 2015 2.51pm)

I agree, I'm glad it's not there and the decision to remove it was sensible. I was simply disagreeing with your assumption that only skinheads would use it. They have never been associated with that flag here.

 


I'd rather be a FREE MAN in my grave
than living as a PUPPET or a SLAVE

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Superfly Flag The sun always shines in Catford 17 Jul 15 3.51pm Send a Private Message to Superfly Add Superfly as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 2.25pm

Quote Superfly at 17 Jul 2015 11.57am

I just can't see it that way. They were either waving it through ignorance or to antagonise.


How is that in anyway 'reasoned debate'?

That is the precise opposite, because you aren't 'debating' but instead deciding for other people.....Like I say, where's the 'reasoned debate'. Aren't you just objecting to an alternative view?

The 'ignorance' aspect is subjective on both sides and as for antagonising.....Well, every flag does that to someone or other.....It doesn't mean a person can't wave it......People should be asked why they are waving it.....What it means to you, doesn't mean it means the same to them.

If someone is waving a flag in support of slavery or some other inhumanity then I agree action should be taken.

But what I object to is a person stating that a flag only means 'this this and this' and that this is the only way to look at it.

That is unreasonable to me. The confederate flag can be flown by people to mean other things than slavery....Independence from the North, Pride in a Southern identity. People should be given the benefit of the doubt before you stereotype them as racists.


To clarify

I mentioned 'Reasoned Debate' as another poster was attempting to portray the flag waving in Oklahoma as innocent and well received when it was anything but.

And in your last sentence - I didn't stereotype anyone as a racist. I clearly stated that I believe in this instance it was used without knowledge or intent of offense.


The 'ignorance' aspect is subjective on both sides and as for antagonising.....Well, every flag does that to someone or other

Some flags more than others. This one being high too up on the antagonising chart to be ignored.

People should be asked why they are waving it

No, really I don't think they should. Not in the stands of Selhurst Park anyway. It's not the intent but how it's percieved. Maybe if they were waiving another flag with a disclaimer about them not endorsing slavery but supprting Southern pride then maybe.

I was too hasty when saying the flag is only used in ignorance or to annoy because as you point out, there are honorable reasons. But in this instance, in the stands of an English football ground with no historic connections, it can (in my unreasoned mind) only be a mistake or to annoy.

 


Lend me a Tenor

31 May to 3 June 2017

John McIntosh Arts Centre
London Oratory School
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with Superfly in the chorus
[Link]

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mcduh Flag 17 Jul 15 3.52pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

Most exalted demonstration of the Cross Pattee:

[Link]

 

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mcduh Flag 17 Jul 15 4.00pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

"Is country music ready to dissociate from the Confederate flag?"
from the Guardian
[Link]


"Even Lynyrd Skynyrd wanted to stop flying the Confederate flag"
from the New Orleans Times-Picayune
[Link]

see also: [Link]

"The Confederate Flag is America's Swastika"
[Link]

What appears to be a halfway interesting piece in the Washington Post:
"Why do Italian soccer fans and other foreigners fly the Confederate flag?"
[Link]

 

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mcduh Flag 17 Jul 15 4.06pm Send a Private Message to mcduh Add mcduh as a friend

I disagree that there are honorable reasons for displaying the Confederate flag, I disagree with any assertion that the Confederate flag never has white supremacist intonations when waved in Europe, I respect that there are Teddy Boy etc. cultural phenomena in Britain that have paid homage to the Confederate flag, blah blah blah. And yes I also think it is a cool looking flag.

But any/all of you who at this point in history are attempting to defend the Confederate flag or celebrate how truly free are those who wave it (or rebellious or whatever)....you're on the wrong side of history/good taste and are embarrassing yourselves. It's too late in the game to still be misunderstanding things.

"In 2013, a school in Canada had to ban the flag after schoolchildren began wearing it. “I didn't even know it was racist,” one student told the Toronto Star. “Then I Googled it.”"

 

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Stirlingsays Flag 17 Jul 15 4.13pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote Superfly at 17 Jul 2015 3.51pm


People should be asked why they are waving it

No, really I don't think they should. Not in the stands of Selhurst Park anyway. It's not the intent but how it's percieved. Maybe if they were waiving another flag with a disclaimer about them not endorsing slavery but supprting Southern pride then maybe.

I was too hasty when saying the flag is only used in ignorance or to annoy because as you point out, there are honorable reasons. But in this instance, in the stands of an English football ground with no historic connections, it can (in my unreasoned mind) only be a mistake or to annoy.

Palace are a southern team, were they playing a northern side? I don't know.

They probably didn't put much thought into it.....A bit of a silly flag to wave.

I quite like your idea of a little disclaimer on the flag.....In fact it's an excellent idea that could clear a lot of this up.


 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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blanksight Flag Thornton heath 17 Jul 15 4.59pm Send a Private Message to blanksight Add blanksight as a friend

Quote mcduh at 17 Jul 2015 3.52pm

Most exalted demonstration of the Cross Pattee:

[Link]


And that's why some associate it with Nazism, despite it's use in germany LONG before the Third Reich. That cartoon (very funny, brilliant link by the way) is set in the first world war after all.

 


I'd rather be a FREE MAN in my grave
than living as a PUPPET or a SLAVE

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