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croydon proud Any european country i fancy! 14 Dec 18 3.01pm
Originally posted by cryrst That post without the muslim bit is what worries me about brexit and one reason i voted remain. A lot of our labour laws come from Europe, and we are fairly well protected within them. I do wonder that with control handed back to each company to a degree; that the protection might well reduce. REDUCE? REDUCE? Don"t be silly cryrst, we can count on the CONservative Eton rifles boris or jacob to make sure the workers rights are FULLY implemented and with all the extra brexit cash coming our way, even improved! The CONS have the working mans rights at the front of their agenda, they have even given people the chance to be off the unemployment register with lots more jobs, record numbers i believe(although they might be one or two hours a day, not guaranteed, and we might call you at 5 am in the morning, or might not, so be available anyway!),,,,,,,,,but jobs none the less!
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croydon proud

Any european country i fancy! 14 Dec 18 3.01pm

Originally posted by cryrst

That post without the muslim bit is what worries me about brexit and one reason i voted remain.
A lot of our labour laws come from Europe, and we are fairly well protected within them.
I do wonder that with control handed back to each company to a degree; that the protection might well reduce.

REDUCE? REDUCE? Don"t be silly cryrst, we can count on the CONservative Eton rifles boris or jacob to make sure the workers rights are FULLY implemented and with all the extra brexit cash coming our way, even improved! The CONS have the working mans rights at the front of their agenda, they have even given people the chance to be off the unemployment register with lots more jobs, record numbers i believe(although they might be one or two hours a day, not guaranteed, and we might call you at 5 am in the morning, or might not, so be available anyway!),,,,,,,,,but jobs none the less!

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Badger11 Beckenham 14 Dec 18 3.10pm
Originally posted by croydon proud REDUCE? REDUCE? Don"t be silly cryrst, we can count on the CONservative Eton rifles boris or jacob to make sure the workers rights are FULLY implemented and with all the extra brexit cash coming our way, even improved! The CONS have the working mans rights at the front of their agenda, they have even given people the chance to be off the unemployment register with lots more jobs, record numbers i believe(although they might be one or two hours a day, not guaranteed, and we might call you at 5 am in the morning, or might not, so be available anyway!),,,,,,,,,but jobs none the less! I don't want to rely on an external body for our rights. Parliament decides what these are and by extension the courts interpret them. If someone wanted to abolish the minimum wage and send children up chimney's I think the public would let their feelings be known at the next General Election. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 14 Dec 18 3.10pm

Originally posted by croydon proud

I don't want to rely on an external body for our rights. Parliament decides what these are and by extension the courts interpret them. If someone wanted to abolish the minimum wage and send children up chimney's I think the public would let their feelings be known at the next General Election.

One more point

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Stirlingsays 14 Dec 18 5.06pm
Something tells me that the solution to having problems with our own parliament isn't to be found in giving power to much larger external centralised and undemocratic bodies. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Dec 18 5.06pm

Something tells me that the solution to having problems with our own parliament isn't to be found in giving power to much larger external centralised and undemocratic bodies.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Badger11 Beckenham 14 Dec 18 5.12pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Something tells me that the solution to having problems with our own parliament isn't to be found in giving power to much larger external centralised and undemocratic bodies. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 14 Dec 18 5.12pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Something tells me that the solution to having problems with our own parliament isn't to be found in giving power to much larger external centralised and undemocratic bodies.

One more point

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steve1984 14 Dec 18 6.24pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays ..my view would be that once you no longer pay into the tax system for a country you don't get the right to a say on its policies.....Mind you I'd always keep the number of foreigners allowed in a country below a set percentage using workarounds....As in Japan. Even if the fact that you no longer pay into the tax system wasn't through personal choice? I would agree that emigrants should relinquish their rights in their former country. But how should you feel if you find yourself to be a foreigner in your own country because some foreign powers (in this instance France, the UK and the USA) decided to donate your thousand year old homeland to another country? As for keeping foreign residents at a fixed level, I would argue that it's always been a bit easier to implement for Japan or the UK because we are both island nations. Maps of certain parts of Europe by comparison show the ethnic make-up of the population to resemble a patchwork quilt. Take the Banat for example a region of Central Europe that currently lies in modern Romania, Hungary and Serbia. Someone once said that if you put a chameleon on a map of the Banat, it wouldn't know what to do. Living in Hungary provided me with a new perspective on the role of national borders in defining the territorial extent of nations culturally, ethnically, economically and politically. For example when you stand in Komárom in Hungary and look across the Danube to Komárno in Slovakia. The similarity in the name is due to the fact that this was never two different places. At least not until 1920. When instead of having to get in a boat (or in this day and age visit an airport) to visit another country you merely have to cross the road, you begin to question the role of the nation state in determining identity, loyalty and especially patriotism. Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 6.42pm) Attachment: img-2-small580.jpg (213.01Kb)
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steve1984 14 Dec 18 6.24pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

..my view would be that once you no longer pay into the tax system for a country you don't get the right to a say on its policies.....Mind you I'd always keep the number of foreigners allowed in a country below a set percentage using workarounds....As in Japan.

Even if the fact that you no longer pay into the tax system wasn't through personal choice? I would agree that emigrants should relinquish their rights in their former country. But how should you feel if you find yourself to be a foreigner in your own country because some foreign powers (in this instance France, the UK and the USA) decided to donate your thousand year old homeland to another country?

As for keeping foreign residents at a fixed level, I would argue that it's always been a bit easier to implement for Japan or the UK because we are both island nations.

Maps of certain parts of Europe by comparison show the ethnic make-up of the population to resemble a patchwork quilt. Take the Banat for example a region of Central Europe that currently lies in modern Romania, Hungary and Serbia. Someone once said that if you put a chameleon on a map of the Banat, it wouldn't know what to do.

Living in Hungary provided me with a new perspective on the role of national borders in defining the territorial extent of nations culturally, ethnically, economically and politically.

For example when you stand in Komárom in Hungary and look across the Danube to Komárno in Slovakia. The similarity in the name is due to the fact that this was never two different places. At least not until 1920.

When instead of having to get in a boat (or in this day and age visit an airport) to visit another country you merely have to cross the road, you begin to question the role of the nation state in determining identity, loyalty and especially patriotism.

Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 6.42pm)

Attachment: img-2-small580.jpg (213.01Kb)

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steve1984 14 Dec 18 6.37pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I'm most strongly of the view that these eastern European are right not to allow significant non European immigration into their countries....it's the main reason they have been free of terrorist attacks. I don't think it's sensible to 'wait and see' if a problem occurs.....of course it will....it will occur and expand due to birth demographics. In the context of a nationalist solution to the problems of immigration, I would argue that it might be a little misleading or even disingenuous to only cite non European immigration as being a problem. Historically Britain used emigration / immigration to pursue its colonial agenda most notably in Northern Ireland. But the Hungarians were also "guilty" of oppressing national minorities in the former Kingdom of Hungary by for example denying them the right to become lawyers or refusing them the right to provide education in their own languages. And indeed that lovely man Nicolae Ceausescu forcibly moved Romanians into the areas of Transylvania with a Hungarian majority in order to weaken the ethnic identity of those places. In all three cases an attempt to impose or at least massively alter the ethnicity of a place has caused long term conflict and suffering whilst simultaneously damaging the health of that region's indigenous culture. An indigenous culture that was distinctly multi-cultural. Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 6.51pm)
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steve1984 14 Dec 18 6.37pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I'm most strongly of the view that these eastern European are right not to allow significant non European immigration into their countries....it's the main reason they have been free of terrorist attacks. I don't think it's sensible to 'wait and see' if a problem occurs.....of course it will....it will occur and expand due to birth demographics.

In the context of a nationalist solution to the problems of immigration, I would argue that it might be a little misleading or even disingenuous to only cite non European immigration as being a problem.

Historically Britain used emigration / immigration to pursue its colonial agenda most notably in Northern Ireland.

But the Hungarians were also "guilty" of oppressing national minorities in the former Kingdom of Hungary by for example denying them the right to become lawyers or refusing them the right to provide education in their own languages.

And indeed that lovely man Nicolae Ceausescu forcibly moved Romanians into the areas of Transylvania with a Hungarian majority in order to weaken the ethnic identity of those places.

In all three cases an attempt to impose or at least massively alter the ethnicity of a place has caused long term conflict and suffering whilst simultaneously damaging the health of that region's indigenous culture.

An indigenous culture that was distinctly multi-cultural.

Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 6.51pm)

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steve1984 14 Dec 18 6.49pm
One of the reasons I went there in the first place was because I discovered that the Capital of Slovakia has three different names. It had a population made up of three different ethnicities. Germans called it Pressburg, Hungarians Pozsony and Slovaks Bratislava. Not to mention the Jews who presumably also called it Pressburg. I was intrigued to find out more about a place that seemed almost as cosmopolitan as my home town London.
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steve1984 14 Dec 18 6.49pm

One of the reasons I went there in the first place was because I discovered that the Capital of Slovakia has three different names.

It had a population made up of three different ethnicities. Germans called it Pressburg, Hungarians Pozsony and Slovaks Bratislava. Not to mention the Jews who presumably also called it Pressburg.

I was intrigued to find out more about a place that seemed almost as cosmopolitan as my home town London.

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Stirlingsays 14 Dec 18 7.02pm
Originally posted by steve1984 Even if the fact that you no longer pay into the tax system wasn't through personal choice? I would agree that emigrants should relinquish their rights in their former country. But how should you feel if you find yourself to be a foreigner in your own country because some foreign powers (in this instance France, the UK and the USA) decided to donate your thousand year old homeland to another country? As for keeping foreign residents at a fixed level, I would argue that it's always been a bit easier to implement for Japan or the UK because we are both island nations. Maps of certain parts of Europe by comparison show the ethnic make-up of the population to resemble a patchwork quilt. Take the Banat for example a region of Central Europe that currently lies in modern Romania, Hungary and Serbia. Someone once said that if you put a chameleon on a map of the Banat, it wouldn't know what to do. Living in Hungary provided me with a new perspective on the role of national borders in defining the territorial extent of nations culturally, ethnically, economically and politically. For example when you stand in Komárom in Hungary and look across the Danube to Komárno in Slovakia. The similarity in the name is due to the fact that this was never two different places. At least not until 1920. When instead of having to get in a boat (or in this day and age visit an airport) to visit another country you merely have to cross the road, you begin to question the role of the nation state in determining identity, loyalty and especially patriotism. Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 6.42pm) A nationality is a concept, it's a unifying idea to draw people who live in a similar location towards towards a common banner.....Whether one nation has control over a particular section of similar land or not isn't the point. Humans are more similar than they are different....but there are differences even if they are only cultural. So nationality is an agreed method between peoples who want to identify themselves. It is an intrinsic part of being human. Most of us recognise that.....we are tribal at a rudimentary level. Supporting different football teams with different histories and attachments to different locations is just one reflection of that. I remember having discussions with Jamie on the question of the relevance of nations and for him it made more sense to have an ethnic identity than a national one....though I don't want to say that he supported that either. As I've noticed that my ethnic identity is under a longer term threat I've understood how these two interplays rub against each other. For me the idea of nation has become rather a lost cause. It's something I'll defend but its value has reduced and withered. I know that for the English the light is dimly showing at the end of the tunnel. To change that dynamic would be enacting changes that I think would hurt me more than I'm willing to agree to....So instead I'm incredibly angry about it....Furious about it in fact. I value my identity....and that's ok. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Dec 18 7.02pm

Originally posted by steve1984

As for keeping foreign residents at a fixed level, I would argue that it's always been a bit easier to implement for Japan or the UK because we are both island nations.

Living in Hungary provided me with a new perspective on the role of national borders in defining the territorial extent of nations culturally, ethnically, economically and politically.

Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 6.42pm)

A nationality is a concept, it's a unifying idea to draw people who live in a similar location towards towards a common banner.....Whether one nation has control over a particular section of similar land or not isn't the point. Humans are more similar than they are different....but there are differences even if they are only cultural. So nationality is an agreed method between peoples who want to identify themselves.

It is an intrinsic part of being human. Most of us recognise that.....we are tribal at a rudimentary level. Supporting different football teams with different histories and attachments to different locations is just one reflection of that.

I remember having discussions with Jamie on the question of the relevance of nations and for him it made more sense to have an ethnic identity than a national one....though I don't want to say that he supported that either.

As I've noticed that my ethnic identity is under a longer term threat I've understood how these two interplays rub against each other.

For me the idea of nation has become rather a lost cause. It's something I'll defend but its value has reduced and withered. I know that for the English the light is dimly showing at the end of the tunnel. To change that dynamic would be enacting changes that I think would hurt me more than I'm willing to agree to....So instead I'm incredibly angry about it....Furious about it in fact.

I value my identity....and that's ok.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 14 Dec 18 7.07pm
Originally posted by steve1984 One of the reasons I went there in the first place was because I discovered that the Capital of Slovakia has three different names. It had a population made up of three different ethnicities. Germans called it Pressburg, Hungarians Pozsony and Slovaks Bratislava. Not to mention the Jews who presumably also called it Pressburg. I was intrigued to find out more about a place that seemed almost as cosmopolitan as my home town London. You keep calling London cosmopolitan. Well parts of it are....but London is in fact many different types of location and it also wasn't as cosmopolitan in the past. You may love what London has become but I don't. It is the English capital....not a cosmopolitan one. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Dec 18 7.07pm

Originally posted by steve1984

One of the reasons I went there in the first place was because I discovered that the Capital of Slovakia has three different names.

It had a population made up of three different ethnicities. Germans called it Pressburg, Hungarians Pozsony and Slovaks Bratislava. Not to mention the Jews who presumably also called it Pressburg.

I was intrigued to find out more about a place that seemed almost as cosmopolitan as my home town London.

You keep calling London cosmopolitan. Well parts of it are....but London is in fact many different types of location and it also wasn't as cosmopolitan in the past.

You may love what London has become but I don't. It is the English capital....not a cosmopolitan one.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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steve1984 14 Dec 18 7.13pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays You keep calling London cosmopolitan. Well parts of it are....but London is in fact many different types of location and it also wasn't as cosmopolitan in the past. You may love what London has become but I don't. It is the English capital....not a cosmopolitan one. That's the very first time I've referred to London. It hasn't been my home for the past 22 years. Read into that what you will. Nevertheless according to the Cambridge Dictionary the definition of cosmopolitan is "containing or having experience of people and things from many different parts of the world" Which will do me even if you feel the need to reinvent London according to your own (negative) experiences. You had noticed that it once had some docks I assume? The place has been literally crawling with foreigners since the year dot. FFS It was even founded by foreigners. Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 7.16pm)
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steve1984 14 Dec 18 7.13pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You keep calling London cosmopolitan. Well parts of it are....but London is in fact many different types of location and it also wasn't as cosmopolitan in the past.

You may love what London has become but I don't. It is the English capital....not a cosmopolitan one.

That's the very first time I've referred to London. It hasn't been my home for the past 22 years. Read into that what you will.

Nevertheless according to the Cambridge Dictionary the definition of cosmopolitan is "containing or having experience of people and things from many different parts of the world"

Which will do me even if you feel the need to reinvent London according to your own (negative) experiences.

You had noticed that it once had some docks I assume? The place has been literally crawling with foreigners since the year dot.

FFS It was even founded by foreigners.

Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 7.16pm)

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Stirlingsays 14 Dec 18 7.21pm
Originally posted by steve1984 That's the very first time I've referred to London. It hasn't been my home for the past 22 years. Read into that what you will. Nevertheless according to the Cambridge Dictionary the definition of cosmopolitan is "containing or having experience of people and things from many different parts of the world" Which will do me even if you feel the need to reinvent London according to your own (negative) experiences. Nope, I'm pretty sure you referred to that early on when you joined up. Everyone's idea of anything is a perception. So to say that I have 'reinvented' something is just horseplay. My concept of London is no more important nor less than yours. I've lived in quite a few different areas of London stretching over different time spans and I'm confident enough to state that London has some cosmopolitan areas and others far less so. I prefer one type of London and you prefer the other.....I grew up in Stockwell in the seventies and eighties....yes my experiences were negative and a couple of times life threatening.....I regard them as having given me insight on the reality of types of immigration over the wishy washy ideas of those who live in more comfortable locations. Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Dec 2018 7.26pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Dec 18 7.21pm

Originally posted by steve1984

That's the very first time I've referred to London. It hasn't been my home for the past 22 years. Read into that what you will.

Nevertheless according to the Cambridge Dictionary the definition of cosmopolitan is "containing or having experience of people and things from many different parts of the world"

Which will do me even if you feel the need to reinvent London according to your own (negative) experiences.

Nope, I'm pretty sure you referred to that early on when you joined up.

Everyone's idea of anything is a perception. So to say that I have 'reinvented' something is just horseplay. My concept of London is no more important nor less than yours.

I've lived in quite a few different areas of London stretching over different time spans and I'm confident enough to state that London has some cosmopolitan areas and others far less so.

I prefer one type of London and you prefer the other.....I grew up in Stockwell in the seventies and eighties....yes my experiences were negative and a couple of times life threatening.....I regard them as having given me insight on the reality of types of immigration over the wishy washy ideas of those who live in more comfortable locations.

Edited by Stirlingsays (14 Dec 2018 7.26pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 14 Dec 18 7.25pm
Originally posted by steve1984 FFS It was even founded by foreigners. Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 7.16pm) The location around that river has been here for thousands of years. What one band of people named it god knows how long around has zero relevance. We have already had the discussion on what the English are so waffling on about the original name of London during one point of its history seems a bit pointless. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

14 Dec 18 7.25pm

Originally posted by steve1984

FFS It was even founded by foreigners.

Edited by steve1984 (14 Dec 2018 7.16pm)

The location around that river has been here for thousands of years. What one band of people named it god knows how long around has zero relevance.

We have already had the discussion on what the English are so waffling on about the original name of London during one point of its history seems a bit pointless.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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